Tony, you're ignoring the points that I raise and my responses to what you have raised. The fact that I was responding to your post above mine should be noted from the fact that I have quoted from it through the post.
You said, "is it not true and possible that in the privacy of their own homes Christian married couples wanting to learn more about their bodies and their sexuality CAN WATCH Pornographic Material Especially if the material is carefully chosen! I submit I lean toward yes."
I am not judging you, merely taking you at your word. You have set yourself up as arguing *for* the use of pornography by Christian couples. I am calling that sin and showing you scripturally why.
You said, "Any picture when viewed from a heart filled with Lust is equal to Sin. But the same picture when viewed with a heart void of lust can be a source of great information."
A heart that is not filled with lust is a spiritual heart and it has no need to view images that are designed to sexually arouse.
Now either you meant what you said or you were lying. I have addressed the stance that you have taken and the values that you have espoused.
It is not a personal attack and it is completely on-topic.
Ok John here is my dilemma with you prior post. you quote me from something I said on July 25 which i thought you responded to on July 27. and this is July 31 and you are commenting as if I made these statements yesterday. It is because I know that all of us in the discussion have dealt with what each other has already said that I am confused if you bring up my post (not as a point of clarity but as if it is a first time statement) that I cannot follow you and for that matter you won't be able to follow my logic either.
I view the discussion as a progression to the truth I am sure I can learn from studying line upon line precept upon precept here a little and there a little in logical progression. Therefore when you take my quotes which are six days old and comment on them you are quoting me out of context, and that is neither fair nor correct.
So getting back to the topic: my last post on the subject was a summation of what I thought to be the pertinent facts of the discussion and they liberate that the key text is found in
Matt;5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The operative words here are "Looking to Lust". this therefore says that it is possible to look at a woman without lust in the heart.
Let us now connect the dots and relate this to Pornography as defined in the bible.
The Greek word pornea is translated fornication in the bible this is described as sexual intercourse between unwed couples.
Based on our discussions the dictionary definition of porn and the biblical definition of the word are to my mind different and it is this fact that causes us to "appear" to be at cross purposes. I wonder if anyone else has this view or I am mistaken. and I would like to ask Mark what are his thoughts on this.
If a new christian came to you and asked you if they could watch porn to help his marriage, what would your counsel be?
Would you specify which porn, and would you be able to find some porn that did not meet have any fornication in it?
How would you do that?
The very act of filming fornication is a sin, because beholding is the sin.
To then make a judgement call on something that was steeped and produced in sin and then to make the claim that it could be used in a pure way, is a bit like taking a bite out of a pork sandwich the devil has made and then telling the world it has been made clean.
With sexual intercourse being a private matter between husband and wife, viewing any other person in that act is adultery from every biblical viewpoint I can muster.
I can find no SOP or bible texts to support your position.
Sex education however should never be mixed with porn.
Using the argument that a couple needs a sexual education, and therefore using the imagery of another couple performing these acts is completely denying the validity of every text I can see that tells me that what I behold I become.
But blurring the lines between two things that should never cross can confuse people.
Can you imagine it now?
Peter: "So you were watching porn then on that date?"
Entrant: "Ummmm.... No.... I was educating myself..."
Using the mask of sex education to present porn is something that his happening in our schools here in England.
What are they doing?
They are teaching our children HOW to have sex, without any moral implications tied to that.
A clever trick of the devil, do not be decieved my friend, it is not a new trick and you should measure your thoughts against Gods Word and the SOP and if your thoughts are wrong, then you know that the devil is planting that thought in your mind.
Ok Mark the porn example was clear and concise so we have no disagreement there.
So on the topic of Porn It is altogether wrong. Not withstanding that you went on to the other part of the issue of Sex Education. Now what do we do with that. Let's not even go to the issue of schools yet, lets look at adult sex education.
I have met several people who clearly did not understand the need for this and caused severe stress in their marital life, some of my colleagues have had to use the few charts available to point out erogenous areas of the body to help couples have a healthier more fulfilling Sex life.
when the pictures are drawn / taken there is no intent to excite but that was when they were drawn / taken. However when they are in use there is in some people excitement and thus the definition of the word pornography according to the dictionary may be applied to the picture, thus making the pictures pornographic. However the biblical definition cannot be applied as they are merely pictures and the introduction of the word lust would be ludicrous. This is the dilemma any good teacher / counselor / Lecturer can find himself or herself in. And to compound the issue couples are for the most part seen together.
So the line is drawn these are real situations what say you all now?
I've found an article by Jeff Olson that addresses this question. Hope it will be of help.
We live in a sexually charged culture where some would have us believe that it is acceptable and appropriate for a husband and wife to view pornographic videos. Most in this camp contend that couples watching tapes of other couples having sex can re-ignite dwindling passion and "spice up" a dull sex life.
Although some "training videos" may contain some practical information about the physical realities of sex, they cross a moral line by communicating that information with demonstrations of couples engaged in sexual activities. The strong sexual imagery in the Bible's Song of Solomon illustrates God's intention for a husband and wife to take great pleasure in viewing and touching each other's bodies. Outside of marriage, however, such behavior is wrong. And it is wrong to view such an intimate act under the pretense of "sex education."
Watching others (regardless of whether or not they are married) demonstrate various elements of the sexual act defiles and contaminates "the marriage bed" ( Hebrews 13:4 ). It's one thing to read educational literature that objectively describes the various factors involved in the sex act. Thousands of engaged and married couples have benefited from reading books like Intended For Pleasure by Ed and Joy Wheat. But it's another thing to view taped episodes of couples engaged in various forms of sexual activity. Common sense itself tells us that there is little, if any, objectivity in such "educational" voyeurism.
Whether it be one of the thousands of X-rated videos made each year, or one marketed as a "sex training" video, watching a tape of another man and woman having sexual intercourse ruins a married couple's sex life. It is a prime example of something that may seem good, but is actually "deadly" ( Proverbs 14:12 ). Watching a videotape of another couple having sexual intercourse may initially inflame the interests and passions of the viewing couple. But in the end it leaves them with many misconceptions about sex that lead to false expectations, disappointment, self-doubt, and resentment.
Pornographic videos create unrealistic expectations about the frequency of sex, the pleasure of specific sexual acts, and the nature of a man's and a woman's sexual arousal and need for physical intimacy. Generally, they portray a woman as a sexual object that a man can quickly and easily "turn on" at his discretion. Furthermore, the participants are often digitally, cosmetically, or surgically enhanced, giving a false impression of what a man's or a woman's body should look like.
A husband and wife can't possibly begin to measure up to the bedroom athletes (performers) they see on the screen, but there is an inherent pressure to do just that. Whether it's acknowledged or not, a husband and wife who view sexually graphic scenes feel a strong pull to look like the actors and to imitate what they do. And when they can't, many feel inadequate. Some feel resentful. A husband can ruin his relationship with his wife by coercing her into doing things that make her feel uncomfortable and cheap. If she refuses, she tends to feel guilty. If she concedes, she feels used, angry, and dirty.
Couples who have allowed pornography into the bedroom have learned that it keeps them constantly "charged up" looking for a sexual outlet. Sex is proper and normal in marriage, but it is not the dominant need. It is legitimately pleasurable, but people have a tendency to abuse everything pleasurable through inordinate indulgence ( Ephesians 4:19 ). Inordinate demands for physical intimacy and sexual stimuli are without doubt one of the most common killers of the emotional and spiritual intimacy that are the core of every good marriage. G. K. Chesterton wisely saw the end of such behavior: "Pride makes a man a devil; but lust makes him a machine." Machines do not have good marriages.
Better do not see porn. It only invite sin in heart.
Crazy pavement among those see this will craved or imagine that man / woman in that video is themselves. Not the is sin? This is what i experince from my friend which not adventist.
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:28
It is a law of the mind that everything you pay attention to is permenantly stored in your brain and will affect ever decision that you make for the rest of your life. When we choose to watch porn, we are choosing to sabatoge our minds and those scenes will come back and haunt you all of your natural life. If you want to abuse yourself, this is a good way to do it. For these choices of images that you have choosen to watch, if you choose that way, will constantly be in conflict with the lessons the Holy Spirit will be trying to teach you and the good things He wants to share with us.
One cannot be neutral in such a situation. Even if you are revolted by what you see, it will still stick in your mind. One time, when I was selling real estate, I was having an "Open House." The owners told me to use the TV if I choose to, when no prospective clients were there. It was a slow day, I don't really think anyone showed up. So, I was looking at some videos they offered to me to watch. One video was a porn film. I did not watch much of it, maybe a minute. However, even though I could not get up fast enough to turn the TV off, I can still see those images today and this is a whole lot of years later. Many times I have asked God to cleanse my mind of these images. And while I seldom think of them, a trigger like this discussion does bring them back. So, take if from someone who has been there.
DO NOT POISION YOUR MIND WITH THAT GARBAGE!
Even though I did not choose to watch, I still have the poision in my mind from what little I saw, before I realized what the video was about. Stay away from it all cost. For if you choose to watch those things, you will not only have the images in your mind, but the guilt for watching them. That I do not have becasue I did not choose to watch them. They are a deadly poision.