The SDA 28 Fundamentals has IJ as one of those pillars that upholds the platform we stand on. To my surprise I have noted some of the saints around here do not think there is any Investigative Judgement. So let us see if there is a Investigative Judgement or not. I have also noted that the same Saints do not subscribe to the writings of E G White. So I would prefer that we use the Bible only.
The SDA church does have the Investigative Judgement as one of its 28 fundamentals Quoting:
24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)
The hour of the evening sacrifice arrives. The priest stands in the court of the Temple in Jerusalem ready to offer a lamb as sacrifice. As he raises the knife to kill the victim, the earth convulses. Terrified, he drops the knife and the lamb escapes. Over the din of the earthquake he hears a loud ripping noise as an unseen hand rends the veil of the Temple from top to bottom. What did the tearing of the veil really mean?
Across town, black clouds enshroud a cross. When Jesus, the Passover Lamb of God, calls out, "It is finished!" He dies for the sins of the world.
Type has met antitype. The very event the Temple services have pointed to through the centuries has taken place. The Saviour has completed His atoning sacrifice, and because symbol has met reality, the rituals foreshadowing this sacrifice have been superseded. Thus the rent veil, the dropped knife, the escaped lamb.
But there is more to salvation history. It reaches beyond the cross. Jesus' resurrection and ascension direct our attention to the heavenly sanctuary, where, no longer the Lamb, He ministers as priest. The once-for-all sacrifice has been offered (Heb. 9:28); now He makes available to all the benefits of this atoning sacrifice.
I have noted some of the saints here saying that the atonement was fulfilled on the cross. I wonder how this could be correct? We have many texts telling us that there is an ongoing Investigative Judgement happening in the heavenly courts at this very moment.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
All I said was I had a different thought on Dan. 8. Not right or wrong.
Example: Last week I saw a man beheaded on TV. I was appalled and sick: I did not understand it.
Could this have been the same for Daniel when he saw the desecration of the temple?
Dan. 7. Who is being judged, and who's dominion is being taken away?
Are the saints being judged?
Leon seeing that you seem to be so convinced in your understanding I quote your post:
"Evening and morning sacrifices prescribed by God, 1150 days, in which the sanctuary was violated and then cleasedor restored by faithful Jews. Dainel didn't understand it by many Jewish scholars and Christian theologians did. Bible truth does not support a second ministry in heaven"
I think you need to support this understanding with some solid Bible proof, what you did write at the bottom of your post does not prove anything.
And while you are at it tell us what you understand the day of atonement really meant to you
I spent the day today with pastor Ken Cox. His new book " Daniel made simple " might be something you would enjoy.
He told me there is no way the IJ can be proved using Dan8 and Dan.9.
That's his opinion.
Thanks Keith I have not seen that Book and I find it hard to believe that Pr Cox would say that. But that may be as it may, what I can recommend you reading is 1844 Made Simple by Clifford Goldstein Pacific Press. It is not a long book only 96 pages, there is also a website set up with the same title.
Pr Goldstein came in to the SDA Church just as the controversy was going on with Desmond Ford. Pr Goldstein determined he would find out for himself if the IJ was Biblical and the Book is the findings of that study.
Somebody in Hebrew school is NOT teaching our Pastors how Hebrew is written in passages anymore....I am surprised by the lack of kindness our Pastors have these days and the poor scholarship they have...His statement is the most misleading I have ever heard....
First : Hebrew does not write passages in chronological times based order, but in LOGICAL ORDER or what we call BLOCK ORDER.
Because the New Testament was written by Jewish authors of the first century CE, their method of recording the life and events of Yeshua follows a more Hebraic format. In "step logic," events are recorded in a chronological order such as we would expect to see on a timeline. However, this method of logic is Greek and since the author's of the Gospels were Hebrews, they would follow an Hebraic form of logic called "block logic," which is more related to circular thought than linear. Block logic records the life and events of Yeshua according to their types. Using the book of Matthew as an example, we find most of his healings are recorded in chapters 8,9 and 12. Most of his encounters with the Pharisees and officials are found in chapters 15, 16 and 22. Many of Yeshua's teachings to his students are found in chapters 18 and 24. And finally, most of Yeshua's parables are found in chapters 13 and 25.
Yeshua was what is known as an itinerate Rabbi, meaning that he was not the Rabbi of a community, but instead traveled the land with his students and teaching in the countryside and towns. We can assume that Yeshua healed, met with the Pharisees and taught his students throughout his ministry. However, when the authors of the Gospels recorded their recollections of the events, they did not record them in linear chronological order, but in blocks according to their relativity
One example should suffice but Benner gives lots of examples
Now lets consider the block Logic of Daniel's vision....this method would also apply to EGW writings as well, if anybody cared to see EGW wrote in Hebrew format, and is not following secular English writing.
Here is the first vision of Daniel concerning the end of time
Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Daniel 8 begins here with the Ram of Persia....
Da 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Again the next past of Daniel 8 fits in here, following more detail from the block logic of Daniel 7.
Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Obviously according to Hebrew block logic of Daniel 7 :9-10 this is the same details of Daniel 8 :13 - 14 , and EGW confirms this to be so.
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:15 ¶ I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
And using the same approach how does Daniel 9 fit in ?
Daniel is praying concerning the city of Jerusalem and when it would be rebuilt, and the vision is a part of Daniel 7 in the middle, not near the end, at the end of time.
Hope this helps
I outlined this interpretation in prior post. Hopefully you are reading them. My interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy is standard amoungst Christians and Jews. Read Maccabees. I can't fathom that you believe other people pulling their interpretations out of thin air. We are reading the Bible just like you are.
Here is the general description of the believe, as stated on Wikapedia.
The ram and he-goat are interpreted explicitly as the kings of Media-Persia and Greece. The use of such animal symbolism may be astrological in nature referring to the Hellenistic constellations that preside over Persia and Syria (Caqout, Koch).
In verses 3 and 4 of Daniel’s second vision, a ram appears standing by the river Ulai having two horns, one higher than the other. According to verse 20, the two horns represent the kings of Media and Persia.
The little horn, who casts some of the stars to the ground, may be an allusion for Helal ben Shacar ("Lucifer (RSV Daystar), son of Dawn") in |Isaiah 14:12 which parallels to the Ugaritic myth of Attar's attempt to occupy the throne of Baal.
In the vision, the he-goat's first horn is broken, giving rise to four horns in its place. The "little horn" is sometimes understood to be one of the four horns that replaced the notable horn, who is accepted as Antiochus IV Epiphanes by historical-critical scholars. Daniel 8:10–14 is referenced to Antiochus' dealings with the Jewish people under his rule, which ended with the Maccabean Revolt. In addition, Daniel 11, with references to Persia and Greece and two kings, is thought by some to refer to the Seleucids, and specifically to Antiochus Epiphanes as "The King of the North".[12
Keith: "Makes sense."
Really, You sure about that? Where does it explained the start of 2300 days from the Bible?
Herbert: "I outlined this interpretation in prior post. Hopefully you are reading them. My interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy is standard amoungst Christians and Jews. Read Maccabees. I can't fathom that you believe other people pulling their interpretations out of thin air. We are reading the Bible just like you are."
O.k fine Herbert, that's our interpretation, and I don't know for sure, but I take your word when you say it's standard among most Christians and Jews... the 7th day Adventist Church has it's belief. Now, the only thing left to do is go to the Bible.
Brother Herbert, once again you can't get around that the 2300 days spoken of in Dan.8 is being explained in Dan.9.
Dan.8:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Understanding on what Herbert?
It must be what was spoken of in Dan.8 and the visions Daniel didn't understand, with the 2300 days being one of them. The connection is there, the "overlap" is there.. Gabriel words confirms it. So you can't deny the 2300 days doesn't play a part of what's being explained in Dan.9, because Gabriel came back to give Daniel understanding on things he didn't understand in Dan.8, and again, the 2300 days(evening and morning) was one of those visions Daniel didn't understand.
(ESV) Dan.8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”
27 And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king's business, but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.
See, let the Bible speak for itself, Daniel didn't understand the evenings and mornings vision, why? because it was sealed up at that time Gabriel came the first time and wasn't explained.
What evenings and mornings can it be talking about Herbert?
The only place to find "evenings and mornings" in that chapter is in verse 14.
(ESV) Dan.8:14 And he said to me,“For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
Thank GOD by HIS Grace and heavy praying from Daniel, Gabriel came back years later to reveal the 2300 days(evenings & mornings) in Dan.9...
Can we agree?
You might have seen this post before, the only reason you are seeing it again is because you refuse to answer questions and reason. I will make it even more easy to answer my questions, if you don't, then it shows a lack of respect!! Yeah, I know I might be tough with you, it's because I believe you are telling untruths, and I just let you know... but it's out of respect, giving you your say, letting ask your questions, and me taking my time, highlighting what you say, and responding to that. So Herbert, if your a good fair Christian, answer my questions please.. :)
Questions made easy to answer for Herbert/Keith,
1) In Dan.8, did Daniel have understanding of the 2300 days (evening and morning) vision?
2) In Dan.9, did Gabriel come back to give Daniel understanding of what he didn't understand in chapter 8?
Two easy questions for you.. Thank you for you time.
Blessings to you brother!
Leon May I ask since when did vikipedia become the basis of the Seventh Day Adventist Church Doctrine?
As well as since when do the Maccabees take prominence ahead of the Bible really Leon you must be desperate.
Actually the Roman church does endorse the Maccabees with some of the other inter testament writings. And you are free to join them, they even worship on the fist day.
Poor Daniel was appalled and sick out of his mind in chapter 8. So Gabriel flew swiftly to explain the vision, years later. Why did he leave Daniel to suffer all these years.
My thought, which the bible supports is, Dan. 8 tells about the Meads and Persians, the Greek empire, and the desecration of the temple and the 2300 days.no dates are given in regards to the 2300 days
Dan. 9 tells the fate of the Jewish people until the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem.
The dates for this prophecy are given.
Dan.7 tells of a judgment in heaven, where the dominion of the one being judged is taken away and the verdict is given in favor of the saints.
Trying to make Dan 8 and 9 overlap is staining.
My own thought is Daniel Understood the vision of Dan.8 perfectly judging from his reaction.it seem unreasonable to be appalled and sick over something you don't understand. We often use the same term," I don't understand " when saying we don't comprehend, or I just can't believe it.
As the SDA church we have changed or modified many of our teachings over the years, this does not make us a false religion. Progressive light didn't stop in the 1800rds. That's why we don't have a creed.
We have a beautiful doctrine of the Sabbath, the second coming of Christ, and assurance of salvation through Jesus our savior. I would hate to see anyone lose their salvation over the 2300 days 1844, or the IJ. Scripture says in Act. 2, whosoever believes on the name of Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Can't get any better than that.
God bless, Keith