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I would like to see some text from both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy concerning who the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation 4 & 5 are.  I am aware that there are at least 2 mainline beliefs on this:


(1) They are representatives of un-fallen worlds.

(2) They are the first fruits resurrected with Christ.


There may be a couple others out there, but from my knowledge these are the 2 main ones.  I personally believe they are the representatives of un-fallen worlds.  I was recently talking to a friend who said he used to believe as I do, but has switched his opinion.  He said he has heard studies with strong arguments for them being the resurrected with Christ.  Anyway, I would like to see texts for both, particularly supporting them being the first fruits resurrected with Christ.



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Thanks again for your comments. I am learning a lot, and I am trying to understand all this better. Right now, however, my opinion has not changed.

First, in answer to your reply to my question, since you say that Gods throne is in the Most Holy Place and the seen sin Rev 4 & 5 are in the Most Holy Place I must disagree. Ellen White clearly says:

The holy places of the sanctuary in heaven are represented by the two apartments in the sanctuary on earth. As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." Revelation 4:5. He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment
of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and "the golden altar," represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. GC pg 414 / 415

I edited this post, because I realized I just went off topic on my own thread :(. I apologize if some of you read it. But I do believe the seen here is in the Holy Place, not the most Holy.

Any thoughts?

Check out this picture

In the bottom picture, the purple curtain separates the Holy from the Most Holy....and yes,,, they are before The Throne
Thank you, wonder picture, anymore of those pic, more pic mean better to have :-)

Yes the Holy Place is before the Most Holy, however she says "Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and "the golden altar," represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth." GC pg 414 / 415

I do not believe there is any disagreement that the arc of the covonent is in the second appartment. The vision in Revelations 4 & 5 happend in the first appartment.

It was not until Revelations 11:19 that John saw Jesus go into the most Holy Place " And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightning’s, and voices, and thundering, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev 11:19. You will also notice in the verse before the 24 elders say And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged..." Rev 11:18 This is when the judgment began in 1844. I do not have time or space to cover all those text, but we know as Adventist the investigative judgment began in 1844, and that it is Biblical.

Jesus did not go into the Most Holy place until the judgment began. Revelations 3:7 says "...he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openth." Ellen White comments on this in Early Writings "The door was not opened until the meditation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil where he now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches" EW pg 42.

Notice that it was not until 1844 that Jesus entered into the most holy place when the Judgment began. But Revelation chapters 4 & 5 are both taking place at Gods throne, Rev 4:2 4:4, 4:5, 5:1, and most clearly 5:6 says "And I beheld and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain..." Jesus was at the throne in these verses. These verses took place at Jesus' assention to heaven when you read the context. The opening of the seals follow the approximate same time line as the messages to the churches begining in around 70 AD. So the seen with Jesus preforming his minestry of opening the seals in heaven happend before 1844. These points are supported elsewhere in scripture. Hebrew's chapter 8:1-5 mentions Jesus as our High Preist at the throne of God. Further, Hebrew’s 8:5 tells us that the earthly sanctuary is patterned after the heavenly one. Jesus as our High Priest would begin his ministry in the Holy Place, the same as the earthly high priest. The earthly high priest entered the Most Holy on day a year (symbolizing the judgment), which Jesus began in 1844. This is all part of the investigative judgment message. I do not believe I need to defend it amongst Adventists, but I just bring it up to show the cohesiveness of the scripture. Other scripture supports Jesus being at the throne of God at is assention to heaven. Hebrew’s 10:12, says “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God.”, Acts 2:32 – 35 also supports this.

I believe the Bible & Spirit of Prophecy is clear that Jesus was both at the Throne, at in the Holy Place prior to 1844, and when the judgment began in 1844, Jesus and the God’s Throne moved to the Most Holy Place. Notice Daniel 7:9 speaking of the judgement “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire;” If God’s throne was in the Most Holy place prior to the judgments beginning, than why is his throne “put in place” and why was he just then "seated." The answer that corresponds with the scripture and Sprit of Prophecy that we have read is that it moved.

I believe this view is in harmony with scripture as a whole. Also an interesting point, The ministry at the candlestick that John saw in Rev 1:13 was the seven messages to the churches, the ministry at the altar Rev 8:3-4 of incense was the seven trumpets, and the article of furniture left out is the table of shewbread. Or is it? The seven seals were opened at Gods throne. Gods throne is seen before the alter of incense and candlesticks (as discussed above). The table of shewbread is on the North side of the temple. God’s Throne is in the north! Isaiah 14:13 tells us speaking of Satan “For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my Throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. “ Lets examine the verse. Satan wants to exalt his throne above Gods, and he wants to sit in the sides of the north. That would imply God’s throne is in the north, and he wants to sit on his throne and exalt his throne above God’s there.

Anyway, I believe God’s throne prior to the judgment is represented as the table of shewbread. I’m not sure that it is necessary to understanding revelations and Jesus’ ministry in heaven to believe that the table of shewbread is the throne of God. But I do believe it is clear, that Jesus and Gods throne are not in the Most Holy Place until the judgment began in 1844.

JOHN had been taken in the Spirit into the presence of
God. In the fourth chapter he describes the appearance of
the throne; this is followed by a view of the work of
Christ and others connected with the plan of salvation. The
fifth chapter is only a continuation of the subject
introduced in the fourth; -- it is an introduction to the
history given in the sixth chapter. p. 101, Para. 2,
The throne was in the Holy Place until the 22nd of October 1844. Then the throne was moved into the Most Holy Place. Right?

Jesus went from the Holy to the Most Holy, not the Throne.

John heard other voices which he understood.
He saw also the seven spirits of God, which, in the earthly
tabernacle, were typified by the seven lamps upon the
golden candlestick. These stood before the throne. This was
the ever present, all-pervading Spirit of Jehovah, in which
all life has its origin. p. 96, Para. 2, [PATMOS].
The throne was high and lifted up, as Jeremiah saw it.

Ezekiel describes the throne as above a firmament, having
the appearance of "terrible crystal." And this crystal
firmament, or expanse, rested above the heads of four
living creatures, which were full of eyes. John was
accustomed to the placid waters of the Mediterranean, and
the space about the throne is described by him as "a sea of
glass like unto crystal." "And in the midst of the throne,
and round about the throne, were four beasts [or living
creatures] full of eyes before and behind." p. 97, Para.
1, [PATMOS].
who moved it?
no man can touch the Throne of God and live
Put the verse up....and yes the candlestick was BEFORE the Throne.
look at the picture below


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