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A Response to the Action of the Pacific Union Conference Constituency Meeting on Sunday, August 19, 2012

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5625/archives/issue-2012-152...

 

The 17 million members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church are united through the Holy Spirit in a common commitment to Christ and the truths of His Word, an urgent end-time mission, and a divinely inspired church organization. A threat to any one of these places at risk the unity of the church. It is for this reason that the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church affirms the Pacific Union’s action not to change their Constitution and remain in harmony with the world church. This represents a step in a positive direction. The General Conference leadership is seriously concerned, though, with the Pacific Union’s subsequent action to preempt the collective decisions of the world church regarding ordination. Unilateral actions contrary to the voted decisions of the global church seriously threaten the unity of the church.

The world church recognizes the vital role that women play in the life, ministry and leadership of the church and encourages their active involvement. Because the General Conference Administrative Committee has already voted and commenced the most comprehensive study in our history on the subject of ordination, which will include the study of the ordination of women, the action of the Pacific Union to grant Ministerial Ordination “without respect to gender” preempts the process voted for the current study of ordination theology and practices by committing the Pacific Union Conference to a particular outcome before the study-and-discussion process is completed. It also expresses a lack of trust in the integrity of the general process accepted and voted by General Conference administrators and personnel, division officers, and pastors and lay members from all the world divisions who serve on the General Conference Executive Committee, which includes the presidents of the 125 unions representing the world church, regarding how we approach common challenges.

Further, the action is contrary to General Conference Working Policy and sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. The action taken by the Pacific Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, as indicated in another recent public statement by General Conference officers and division presidents, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Pacific Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and from implementing any such actions.

It is our prayer that the “oneness” Jesus prayed for in His great intercessory prayer in John 17, and that which the disciples experienced in Acts 2, will be manifest in His church today. We pray that the result of this “oneness” will be lives transformed by His grace, united in His love, and empowered by His Spirit to proclaim His last-day message in all of its fullness to a perishing planet, hastening the glorious return of our Lord.


Ted N. C. Wilson, President
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists


G. T. Ng, Secretary
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists


Robert E. Lemon, Treasurer
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

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Ronald

This information has already been posted.  Also, in a previous response I have given you a source where you can find the answer to you questions.  If you really want an answer, then check that source.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray

Ray just did, from 1 Kings, and you seem to reject it, as do a lot of those who have managed to throw out the Old TEstament altogether..

 

I am sorry to come at you Ronald. I know I SEEM mean to some. I AM passionate about the Bible, and am NOT one to grasp at titles or fame. I see it as a distraction to the REAL purposse, which IS saving souls. I can do that as I do my daily work. I can do that however God has called me to do it, and wherever.

I understand that some say they feel convicted by God. But one of those lady speakers said it ALL when she said, and I QUOTE, " A GOD came among us..."

 

She explicitly said A god.. I do not serve A god.. I serve THE God, the Creator of the unvierse,( in 6 literal days)... NOT A god that is the "god of forces" that the Bible talks about. Sorry, but she gave it all away..

She may not have even realized she said it, but she did.. And I DO feel it gives it all away, the IMPETUS FOR this drive to ordain 'any who would'.. The 'god of forces' that a LOT of people worship right now, cause they dont want to offend anyone with an ABSOLUTE, is a mockery of the God we serve.

I would say that the commandment about coveting really covers it, and it does.. Lucifer coveted a position that God had NOT SAID, EXPRESSLY, was his.. To me, when you DO read the Bible, in the New Testament when its giving the criteria for ordination, the ruling of a well organized household, is ALSO very damning to the pro folks..

 

God HAS NOT SAID EXPRESSLY that His views have changed in this matter.. Just like the Biblical Sabbath, if you ask me.. They use vague texts to prove Sunday has become the Lord's day. Its a lack of hard PROOF and EXACT prohibitions to WOPE that allow them to move on.. In my opinion, a stumbling block for those who seek position and covet anothers..

 

So theres one commandment..

 

THEN you have the commandment that came direct from Jesus lips before the last supper.. The ORDINANCE of HUMILITY.. Jesus HIMSELF said THIS DO, in remembrance of ME... It was NOT just about washing feet, but about remaining HUMBLE... SERVANT of ALL and all that??

So, that is another commandment that they TRAMPLE.

And again, I am passionate, but not mean use the Bible to show what the Biblical position IS on the issue.. The BIBLICAL position...

I UNDERSTAND that a lot of people cant seem to accept the sanctuary and anything from the old Testament, but, Jesus OPENED THOSE Scriptures to the men on the road to Emmaus!!! It was THEY which BURNED within thier hearts!! Enliveing them to the Truths they had missed before..

 

The quote I posted about the rampant relativism coupled with individualism bringing with it this new concept of the word 'tolerant'... THAT explains what is going on here..

 

But, the Pro WOPE group is CLAIMING portions of Scripture, and USING portions of Scripture, BUT, IN THE ABSENCE of DEFFINITIVE Scripture, either for or against, it ONLY seems WISE to go with the model that God DID leave us with, doesnt it??

 

To go off after something NOT expressly enjoined BY GOD seems highly unwise at this point..

 

And Teresa, I am proud of the fact that you cannot penetrate the shield that God has put around me as I seek for the Truth.. :) I pray to never be decieved by UN-Biblical doctrines of men. ( AND women, apparently..)

 

Also, JUST because society has degenerated to the point that women DO have to rule thier own households, do you REALLY thnk GOD has CHANGED on the issue?

Just because we are feeling the effects of generations of sin and having unwed mothers and divorced single parents, do you honestly think God has changed BECAUSE of the effects of sin??

No.. He was WELL provisioned against EVERY effect of sin.. WHEN He wrote the Book.. So, I cant reckon He has changed just because we are suffering the ill effects of our own selfish choices..

Ronald I said I was proud of the fact that Teresa has not been able to make me belive the deception I think she has fallen for.

 So, I am not proud of being for humility. But, thanks for trying, I guess?

 

And coveting something that doesnt belong to you is how GOD himself left it in the Bible as to women being in His ordained positions.. They were all men as priests. The fact that we are all now part of a royal priesthood and there is no differentiation, goes to our witnessing.. We HAVE the repositories of the mysteries of the gospel given to us as a denomination.. THAT is our main objective.. To get out the Truth for these days.. Ordination SHOULDNT even MATTER.. PROBABLY at ALL..  ut God IS a God of order and so, since HE LEFT IT AT MEN, good luch going your own way on that.. It IS coveting for a woman to want a God appointed manly role..

Judge not that you be not judged, BUT, DO YOU NOT KNOW that you will judge ANGELS in heaven, therefore HOW CAN YOU NOT know how to judge between the least of these things??

(I hate it when people put words in my mouth and I didnt think you would be one of those..  You seem so able to carry on a lucid conversation.. Never thought you would have to go there.. But, AGAIN, I NEVER said I was proud of anything except that Teresa cant decieve me..And I still am.. :)

Well, I feel she is decieved and her comment,

"Good luck with that one. Nothing seems to penetrate"

was pointed at me, as she has never been able to get me to see things her way. She seems to be angry at men and bitter over thier 'headship'.. I cant buy into that kind of attitude and we dont get along very well..

 

But I dont know if she just doesnt see that she could possibly be decieved by a more worldy spirit than what she thinks is leading, in this fight for women being equal with men in God's house.. I feel like her bitterness has overwhelmed her ability to humble seek God on the matter.. I'm sorry for stating my opinion so bluntly, but feel its best to be honest.

 

I changed my mind when I went to God's Word.. Some things I dont understand, but I am content to patiently go with what I KNOW and wait for Jesus to answer my questions on those issues when I see Him face to face.. Really, this being one of those..

Ronald

You asked Deborah to point out some of the Ten Commandments that are violated by ordaining women. 

From your comments, I did not think that what was said in the Old  Testament made any difference in this subject.  I guess, it is only what you want to accept something that you reference it.

Well, let's take a look anyhow.

    "And God spoke all these words, saying,
    [2] "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."  Exodus 20:1, 2 (ESV) 

When we place our opinions above what God has specifically stated, see 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 2, we are not recognizing that the Lord, "the self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah," is in fact God.  We are saying that our opinions are equal to or above what God has spoken.

    "You shall have no other gods before me."  Ibid vs. 3

When we follow the biblically unsupported ideas and concepts of others, we are placing them as a higher authority then God, i.e. another God, just as Adam did when he obeyed Eve rather then God, and what Eve did when she obeyed Satan rather then God.

    "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.  [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,  [6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."  Ibid vrss 4-6 

When we follow others, thereby making them our god, we are showing that we love them more then we love God, just as Adam did.  And when we fail to keep His commandments, we show that we, in fact, do not love God at all.

    "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain."  Ibid vs. 7

When we take the name of Christian, we are claiming to be part of God's family, just like when a woman takes the family name of the man she marries, she is proclaiming, every time she uses it, that she is married to him.  So, when we call ourselves a Christian and fail to do what God has instructed us to do, we are taking God's name in vain.

   "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.  [9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,  [10] but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.  [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."  Ibid vss 8-11

The spiritual leaders work harder on the Sabbath then any other day.  So, when we ordain those who do not qualify, we are causing them to break the Sabbath.  For God has not authorized their working on Sabbath, since they are not a spiritual leader that He has authorized the church to ordain. 

    "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you." Ibid vs. 12

The greatest honor that we can give to our fathers and mothers is to allow God to make us good.  When we go on a way contrary to God's instructions, we are making ourselves our own god and thereby violating this commandment.  For we do not bring any honor to our parents by challenging God.

   "You shall not murder." Ibid vs 13

When we choose to disobey God's instructions, we take our own life, or self murder.  Thus when we choose to ordain those who do not qualify, we bring a death sentence on ourselves.  See Revelation 2: 20-23.

  "You shall not commit adultery."  Ibis vs. 14.

Worshipping gods other then the God of heaven is called "adultery" all through the Bible.  Ordaining anyone who will is one of the practices of these other gods.  One of the meanings of this Hebrew word is "to apostacize."  So, this command is also violated. 

"You shall not steal."  Ibid vs. 15 

When a person who does not qualify takes a position God has assigned to another, they are stealing from that person.  The one who counseled them to do so is stealing from God's authority  When they set up their opinion above what God has said, they are stealing from God.  This violating this commandment in two ways.

    "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."  Ibid. vs. 16 

When anyone tells a woman that is it OK for her to be ordained, they are bearing false witness.  Also, when we say that we love God, the Bible says that we are a liar when we do not obey His commandments.  So, we violate this commandment too.

Now we come to the most important one of all.  Let' Inspiration address this one, since it is so important.

    [17] "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's."" Exodus 20:1-17 (ESV) 

 

     "The tenth commandment strikes at the very root of all sins, prohibiting the selfish desire, from which springs the sinful act. He who in obedience to God's law refrains from indulging even a sinful desire for that which belongs to another will not be guilty of an act of wrong toward his fellow creatures."  {PP 309.5} 

So, the real question you should have asked is this: "Which of the Ten Commandments is not violated whe we ordain those who do not qualify according to God's specifications?

 

Maranatha :)
Ray

 


 

Ronald

Since the computer cut off responses to your comment in that thread, I'll comment here. 

You posted:

"You know, brother Ray, if we can't even pretend to believe in one another's honesty and sincerity, then I really don't see any point in discussing anything."

First of all, I do not pretend.  Oh, I realize that is politically acceptable, but I do not beleive that one who God has called to present the truth can work from that platform.

Second, I believe that you are expressing your sincere opinions.  However, I do not believe that you are honestly stating your beliefs.  For an example. you claim to be neutral, however, you argue like the proverbial "dutch uncle" for WOPE.  So, a reader is left wondering just what do you believe?

In my writtings, I make it very clear that I am not for WOPE and that from what I have found in the Bible, those who cast in their fate with those who beleive in WOPE will be destroyed by God.  And I have shared many scriptures to show just how the scriptures gives that warning.  This is not directed at any one person, or group of people, it is only sharing what God has warned us about in regards to this issue. 

What I have written is not soley for you.  What I write is for all who might read it.  There is so much misinformation going around about WOPE that what I am trying to do is to focus the discussion on the real issue. 

That is that we must be in submission to God's requirments, for that is essential for being ready to live with Him for eternity.  If we find God's requirements onrous here, we most certainly will not want to be in heaven where everyone will only want to do His will.

If that approach is taken as not believing you are honest, then I will have to plead guilty.  However, I attempt, whether talking with  you or anyone elses, to deal with issues, not personalities.  Now, being human, I'll admit that at times I do step over the line unintentionally.  When I do, I attempt to be sure to appologize.

The problem comes when someone becomes so attached to an opinion that an attack on the idea is taken as an attack on themselves personally.  And this can apply to everyone.

Sometimes that is good.  For if we so closely identify with God's word, then an attack on God's word is taken personally. 

However, often it is bad.  For if one is so closely attached to their own opinions or the opinions of their choosen philosopy sphere, then an attack on that error is also taken personally. 

In either case, the way we respond shows which side we are on. 

As Jesus said:

    "for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."  Matthew 12:37 (ESV) 

So, once again, when I am dealing with an issue, what I write is not directed at you personally.  It is focused on that issue completely.  So, if you really are neutral, as you claim, then you should not be bothered by anything I have written.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray
 

 

Teresa,

i agree that name-calling is not helpful and is downright unchristian. I look back at my posts and see that I've called people names (you and Sarah especially). Would you be so kind as to forgive me?  

Thanks. much appreciated. God bless you too.

Ok...just for the record...I am not on the side of womens ordination.....and nor am i on the side of the SDA church thinking sunday is really saturday in Tonga and Samoa.

God Bless.

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