Adventist Online

Additional Resources Regarding the Debate of Keeping the Old Testament Rituals.

Derek and James Pierce

On behalf of Adventist Online, SHALOM CHAVER, Welcome! To this awesome site. I hope you guys will def have a blast here. In our previous discussion regarding the sacrificial system of the old testament has brought to my attention. Good points on both sides. I develop a free SDA media website for a friend who went to high school with here Atlanta, Georgia. He is now living Orlando, Florida working as a nurse and pastor. I just remembered that he made me post a handout on a study regarding this topic that we are currently discussing. Just go to:

http://www.onetruegospel.com

Click on Bible Studies => Enter => Part2. Look for the title: Better Promises (Old vs. New Covenant)

It's formatted in PDF and MS Word for your convenience. You can contact him if you like and he'll respond. Feel free to check out the website, it has mp3's, videos, and more!

Anyone on here can check it out and be blessed!

Views: 23

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Gabriel,

This is an article that I wrote in response to someone else on another network. This will answer some points on that brothers PDF article:


Caral,

Therefore the Mosaic Age, had not yet fully ended and as you are aware did not end until 70 AD. with the destruction of Jerusalem. Once the Temple was destroyed the Mosaic Law and the old covenant was vanquished and the prophecies given by Christ in Matthew 24 fulfilled.

Let us consider the full context of Hebrews 8. What we must consider is the premise of Hebrew 8. Verse 1-2,"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man."

The keyword here is High Priest. What was the job of the High Priest in the Temple? Their job was to be holy unto HaShem. They were to work in the temple. Numbers 18:1,"And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying: You and your sons and your paternal house shall bear the sins of the holy things, and you and your sons shall bear the sins of your priesthood."

Based off of this background, we know that Hebrews 8 is dealing with the priesthood, and its duties, as spoken in Numbers 18:1.

According to Verse 1, their duties are:

1) bear the sins of the holy things
2) bear the sins of their priesthood

Verses 2-7,"And bring to yourself your brothers, levi's tribe, a division of your father, and let them be added to you, and let them minister to you, also you and your sons with you before the tent of witness. And they shall keep your guard duties and the guard duties of the tent, but they shall not approach the holy furnishings and the altar, and both they and you shall not die. And they shall be added to you, and they shall keep the guard duties of the tent of witness, according to all the ministries of the tent, and no alien shall approach you. And you shall keep the guard duties of the holy things and the guard duties of the altar, and there shall not be wrath among the sons of Israel. And as for me, I have taken your brothers the Levites from the midst of Israel's sons, as a gift given to the Lord, to minister in the ministries of the tent of witness.And you and your sons with you shall guard your priesthood for all that concerns the altar and that is within the veil; and you shall serve. I give your priesthood as a gift, and any outsider who comes near shall be put to death."

The duties displayed here are:

1) Basically to Keep guard duties of themselves and the temple

So, to Hebrews 8, we see from the premise that its referring to the priesthood and its duties, and this will carry out, as we shall see, through the whole chapter. Verse 2 of Hebrews 8 says,"a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man." As you have read in the Torah concerning the duties of the ministry of the priest in the tents. Yashah now serves in heaven, at the true tent. He is carrying out His temple duties in the heavenlies.

Verse 3,"For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer." This is also part of the high priest duties.

Now, I have established from the Torah, that Hebrews 8 is referring to the high priest, and its duties, and the ministry of Yashah. Verse 6,"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." It says that Yashah has contained a better "ministry." This ministry still involves the priestly duties as you saw in the Torah, except that Yashah has paid the price once and for all(Hebrews 10). His ministry is better because its no need to go to the temple to "atone for sin." Rather, yom kippur would now be a simple celebration of what Yashah has fulfilled. His ministry, enacted on better promises, is referring to His priestly duties. He forever advocates for us, and not just once a year. Isn't that better?

Now, you have mentioned that the old covenant was faultless, and you used verse 7. In order to properly understand verse 7, you must compile that with verse 8-12. Verse 7 says,"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second." Verse 8,"For he finds fault with them when he says. So, the covenant itself, there was no fault in, for verse 8 is a continuation of verse 7, hence the use of the word "for." It was not the covenant that was of fault, but rather the PEOPLE, who were always disobeying HaShem. THEY were the fault ones. do you follow this? This is why verse 8 says,"finding fault with THEM."

The rest of the verses, which you can also find in Jeremiah 31:31-34, gives us the decrees of the NEW COVENANT:

1) Torah will be written on hearts
2) HaShem will be their God
3) Sins will forever be forgiven, never to be remembered

If Torah is decreed in the new covenant, then why do you seek to ignore this decree? Will you be an anti-Messiah, who seeks to change the times and the Torah(Daniel 7:25)? Think about these things. So, you now know, and you really do know, that Hebrews 8 is referring to the HIGH PRIESTLY ministry of Yashah, which includes Torah. Now, you know that the temple was still standing at the time Hebrews was written, and the author said that this old covenant(which deals with the priesthood ministry) is "ready to vanish away." How did this author know this? Well, we can assume that he read where Yashah said in Matt 24,"Not one stone shall be left in the temple." This covenant that is ready to vanish away is not the whole Torah, rather the earthly duties of the priests. We have a HEAVENLY priest that is ETERNAL, who is the high priest of the new covenant WITH its 3 decrees as you read above.

If we look again at the promise of Jer 31:31-34 this refers to the new covenant of Christ Jesus, to the better and the greater sacrifice made once and for all of His body upon the Cross.

One thing that Christians miss is who the new covenant WILL BE made with. Verse 31 of Jeremiah chapter 31,"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." Who will the new covenant be made with? Israel & Judah. Do you see any Gentiles here according to Jeremiah? When did Israel & Judah come together to agree on keeping the new covenant? What scripture do you have for that event?

All covenants that HaShem creates, the other party MUST agree. Similar to a marriage, both parties must say "I do." Here is where Israel agreed WITH HaShem on the covenant... Ex 24:7,"All that the Lord has said we will do and heed." When did Israel & Judah repeat this line of scripture for the new covenant? Where in the new testament did Israel & Judah repeat that line to heed the new covenant? Until you can show this, then you have no case for proving or disproving the new covenant and whats in it.

As verse 8 reiterates Psalm 40 6-8 that YHWH takes no pleasure from the burnt offerings and sacrifice

Although it may seem like HaShem was contradicting Himself. If one does not know or read the Torah, then they may take heed to what YOU is saying. If you read the scripture closely, you will see two parts of it:

1) Sacrifice and offering you did not want
2) But ears you fashioned for me

The question would be,"What does ears have to do with sacrifice and offering? Well, for one, david is not saying that HaShem did not command burnt offerings and sacrifices. The reason for number 2 is that the MOST important thing to do is to LISTEN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF HASHEM. If you obey HaShem's voice, then you will carry out the burnt offerings and sacrifices. HaShem hates men that does His Torah, but their hearts are far from it. Thats all that Ps 40:6-8 is saying.

In closing, Caral, you have not given hard solid evidence for the Torah's disappearance. This is about simply proving from the scriptures, and even the Greek language. Torah is, and always will be, the government of the people of HaShem. Isaiah 66:22-23 states that in the new heaven and the new earth, from new month to new month, and from SABBATH TO SABBATH, all flesh shall worship HaShem. Zech 14 shows us that at the second coming of Messiah, we shall take part in the feast days. No getting around Torah, Caral. Yashah will judge them that does not keep Torah. Yashah says in Luke 11:28,"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Caral, get on the band wagon of obedience to Yashah, and walked as He walked. How did Yashah walk? HE KEPT TORAH!!!
Gabriel,

I've read the major points in the supplemental reading. Much like many 7th day Adventist, he believes that the 10 commandments are the only ones we heed to. But, HaShem says obey ALL that I command you. He commanded more than 10 commandments. Since the temple isnt here, we cannot do anything that requires a temple.

So, we apply all that does not need a temple. We as men must not shave our beards completely off, no tattoes, wear the tzitzit, no sex while the woman is on her cycle, etc, etc. These are more commands that we are to heed. If you follow 10, then you MUST keep all that apply without the temple, since we do not have the temple.

We do not have a sinful Priest, rather, we have Yashah the High Priest. He committed no sin. He kept Torah perfectly. He forever advocated for us. Did you read my article? I explained all this above.
You are referring to keeping the ceremonial laws of the Israelites that were clearly done away with once Christ came to earth and died for our sins.

Do you believe we should execute adulterers? (Leviticus 20:10) That doesn't have to do with the temple so it appears you think we should do that. Is that correct? Jesus apparently did not think that way.

God bless!
Clark

PS. Are you a Seventh-day Adventist? Do you believe in the trinity? (I'd just like to know more about where you are coming from...)
Shalom Clark,

The Apostles, and the early Church continued to take part in the "ceremonial laws" even after Yashah's resurrection! A notable one is when Paul took the ritual Nazarite vow in Acts 21. He did this because men were saying that he was teaching against Torah, and teaching men to abandon it. That sounds like Christians to me! So, with that proof among many, Yashah did not do away with any of the Torah. Paul even said in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not throw away the Torah, but it upholds/establishes it.

Do I believe we should execute adulterers? No, because that is apart of the curse of Torah. The Torah is a duality. It contains life and death. Yashah became a curse for HIS people. Among HIS people, we do not stone anyone if they fall into sin. Yashah is our everlasting High Priest that always advocates for His people. Actually, There was a reason why Yashah did not allow the woman to be stoned.

In order for Yashah to stone her, or even allowed her to be stoned, there had to have been witnesses.

The interesting thing is that the Pharisees were not the ones witnessing the woman in the act. They just simply brought her to Yashah. She may have been caught in the very act of adultery, but there was most likely one witness who could attest to it. According to Torah, there must be two or three witnesses testifying. One witness could not have done it. The scriptures is as follows:

Duet 17:6,"On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness."

Duet 19:15,“A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established."

As we can see here, Yashah, once again, proved faithful to His father's Torah. He did not stone her, because there was not any real witnesses. They did not come forth. YASHAH KEPT TORAH! And He taught us to do the same.

I am not a 7th day Adventist. Im a Nazarene. I practice Nazarene Judaism, which were the EARLIEST followers of Yashah that kept Torah. I do not believe in the trinity. That's a pagan doctrine from the Constantine & RCC. In fact, Constantine was the one that established the "cross." He claimed that he saw it in the sky. NO early Christian ever believed in a cross, or wore crosses.
I like that, but its length will discourage lazy readers

RSS

Site Sponsors

 

Adventist Single?
Meet other Single
Adventists here:
Join Free


USA members:

Support AO by
using this link:
Amazon.com

 

© 2018   Created by Clark P.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service