A church employee talks to Spectrum about her decision to transition from the male to the female gender, her relationship with her wife and family, and her relationship with the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Question: You are an employee of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and in the process of transitioning from the male to the female gender. Is it possible to remain an employee of the church?
Answer: I am currently an employee of the SDA church, yes, but only for a short time more. I have chosen to leave of my own accord, and gave my notice to my employer nearly six months prior to my planned departure.
The senior executive I gave my notice to responded in a way that I will always cherish. After I told her that I would be leaving, her first response was to ask why. I told her that I was a transgender person, and that my journey at this time in my life was to move forward with the transition that I had begun nearly four years earlier.
Her response was: “My, I wouldn’t have guessed. Do you have a support network?”
I said that I did. She then asked whether my wife had a support network. I said that she did.
The next question was whether my children had a support network. Again I responded in the affirmative.
Over the next 15 to 20 minutes we worked out the logistics of how the information of my departure would be managed. Twice more she asked me the same three questions about a support network. I said that I hoped I would be able to continue to contribute to the institution and eventually join conversations on the subject of being transgender and Seventh-day Adventist. She said she thought that would be good.
You asked whether I could stay on as an employee. The answer is not simple. If the only constraints were at the specific institution where I work, I think the answer would be that I could transition and stay. But given the broader church politic and influence, I don’t believe it is possible at present.
Finally, given the connectedness of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and the thinking in some areas of the church, I believe staying is not worth the potential damage it would cause my family.
So you have not been asked to leave?
How about remaining a church member? Will you continue to attend a Seventh-day Adventist church? Do you hold Adventist beliefs?
I have no intention of leaving the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I would say that I and my wife are progressive Adventists and as such we see the church as having a lot of room — more than what some would allow for.
The next question is not so easy. Finding an Adventist church that will accept a “same sex” couple will not be easy, and we will not attend a church on a regular basis that will not be affirming. So the answer is that it depends on where we end up settling and whether that place has an SDA church that will be a loving, fully accepting community. (Not that every member has to agree, but we should be able to hold a church office etc.)
As I said, we are progressive in our beliefs, and I have gone so far as saying that I am a cultural Seventh-day Adventist. That said, at the core of my belief I am a disciple of Christ and live my walk based on Christ’s statement of the law in the gospels when He states: The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, and the second is like it; love your neighbor as yourself. I connect that to Matthew 25 and the scene of the judgment with its call to treat those on the fringes as God’s children.
I am not saying that there are no bounds or limits, but they must be based on principles of love that create positive, faith-building relationships.
I guess the simple answer is to the question is: In large part I accept the teachings of the SDA church and its fundamental beliefs. The community of the church is something that I am deeply a part of, based on both family and personal history, and in large part my experience with the Church has been very good.
Have you told any of your colleagues about your transgender experience?
Yes, and to a person they have been kind, supportive, caring and concerned. They would like to see me stay, but they also understand Adventist communities and the broader forces that presently prevail within the church on this and the broader questions of LGBTQI issues.
At this point all of my close colleagues know and have known for several months. Their support continues to be there.
Can you tell us more about how your wife feels about your decision to switch genders? How long have you been married?
I have been married for over 30 years.
I will not attempt to speak for her, but I will reflect on what she says and what I believe she thinks and feels.
First, she would not choose this. But our marriage has been based on a deep and enduring friendship and commitment — one grounded in love and faith. We have been faithful throughout our marriage to each other, always keeping our vows.
We are both, by nature, rather non-confrontational in how we relate to others, and we both look for the best in others. This outlook has created the path that allows us to move forward together as a couple even now.
She has known for nearly a decade that I am transgender and has made a conscious decision to stay with me and to keep our relationship alive.
My wife has experienced what is commonly felt by spouses and families of transgender people: when someone transitions there is a sense of the person dying before your eyes. But then the person who emerges is in most ways the same, so the reasons you loved that person are still there and in those key ways the person has not changed.
As my wife and I have discussed my transition in the past few weeks, she said something that really struck me, and shows what an amazing person she is. I had expressed how amazing it was to just be me, mostly not worrying about keeping up appearances. I talked about how a burden that I have carried for some forty years was finally lifting. She responded that she could understand and that she was so glad to see how free and happy I was. She went on to say that she still loved me and can’t picture growing old with anybody else. Then she said: “I appreciate that you have carried this burden for so long; now it is my turn to carry the load.”
This is as deep a commitment as anyone could ever ask, and as great a gift as anyone could receive.
We do hope to grow old together.
Do you know other Adventists who are transgender? What has their experience been like?
Yes, I know several Adventists who are transgender and several former Adventists who are as well.
The experience of each is different, but the key is how family relates to them. For those who have supportive families who are within the church, they have continued their connection to the church to varying degrees. Some are regular participants and members of their local churches. One is even a local church elder. For those that have family who are not accepting, most have left the SDA church and in some cases even the larger Christian religion.
Acceptance by one’s family is a very powerful thing, and when your family is there for you in positive supporting ways, even it they don’t understand, life is worth living.
Tell us a little bit about your family. Did you grow up in the Adventist church?
I grew up in an Adventist family. I am a 4th generation Adventist on both sides of my family. One of my grandfathers was a pastor/administrator in the church, the other was the head elder of a large congregation for 30 years or more. My parents both worked the majority of their professional lives within the Adventist educational system, with my father a university professor/administrator and my mother teaching every thing from kindergarten to college. I have three siblings. Two have spent most of their professional lives within the Adventist healthcare system as managers and leaders. One has held positions as president and CEO of several organizations. My third sibling is a very successful author and publisher.
My home life was a wonderful upbringing in a loving, caring family in an Adventist community. Virtually all of my friends were Adventists and their parents were active in the church and community. I was never abused by anyone as a child. My mother’s area of professional expertise is in the area of family and early childhood development and so she was very engaged as a parent, and my father was an equal partner in the task of raising the four of us. They are still active in their church community and truly cannot go anywhere in the Adventist world without encountering someone they know.
We are still a closely connected family, and I talk regularly with my parents and siblings. We vacation together about once every 12 to 18 months and these gatherings are always fun and enjoyable.
My wife and I have children who are young adults who we raised in the Adventist church, with most of their schooling in SDA schools. They are both Christians, but they now question the Adventist church because of the basic tone of the church and how it views LGBTQI issues. They find an incongruence to how the church views people they know who are LGBTQI and Christian.
When did you begin to feel more comfortable as a girl or woman?
My journey to understanding started in elementary school. Before the age of 9 I realized that I would rather be a girl to the world, but feared the consequences of telling anyone — so I didn’t. Sometime in the mid 1970s my brother, who is four years older, came home and announced that the artist who created the album “Switched on Bach” had “changed sexes” and he wanted to know what my parents thought. I don’t remember the specifics of that dinner table conversation, but I do know that it was clear that they didn’t think you could switch, and that likely it wasn’t “right.” This insured that I stayed deeply in the closet.
I came to realize that I was a “transsexual” sometime in the course of middle school when I happened across an article in one of the local daily news papers. There was an article about a young transsexual woman who had transitioned,; she had the surgery commonly referred to as Sexual Reassignment surgery (SRS). (Preferred terms to today are Gender Reassignment surgery, GRS, or Gender Conformation surgery, GCS). With this article I realized that there was actually a way to change how one’s genitals appeared from male to female, and I knew that somehow that is what I needed — that indeed I could become a woman. About the same time Renée Richards became the first “out” professional athlete to play in a major sporting tournament and series (women’s tennis). With this and a few other things I realized that there were indeed other people who were similar, but within the culture and conversation of the community, it was clearly viewed as bad.
Due to the conflict with my religious upbringing I struggled to reconcile what I felt, and so I did what any good young Adventist male would do: I got married just out of college. My wife and I were young, and I was sure that this was the cure.
The realization that it wasn’t was quick to arrive, and in less than a year, I knew it hadn’t changed that part of me. I continued to struggle in silence and in the closet. I struggled with God about it until finally, after two children, I realized that God accepts me the way I am. I realized that it wasn’t my choices that led to the way I am; I just am, for whatever reason, and I don’t get to know “why me?” until heaven.
With that realization, I became comfortable with the idea of seeing myself as a woman, but due to my military career, and my family responsibilities I stayed closeted until my wife happened to find my boxes of clothes and accessories. By this time I was in my early 40s and I was ready to live with integrity in my marriage, and so I told her. That was nine years ago.
The emergence of the internet was a powerful thing for transgender people, as suddenly there was information out there that you could find from the privacy of your home. Suddenly I realized that I was not alone. This created hope that there might be a chance at “life.”
To summarize, I felt comfortable as a girl when I was somewhere between six and nine years old. Like everyone else I moved through life with its accompanying doubts and fears, but I did it to the world as a guy, and internally as a girl. In adulthood — once I resolved the spiritual conflict — I was good with being a woman. In fact I was great with it. The more I have moved through transition, the more comfortable I am.
Now I’m a rather sporty 50-something woman who loves fitness and fashion and trying to figure out how things work. I love to create images of the world (through photography). I love woodworking and cooking for my family.
What do you like about the Adventist church? What do you dislike?
The greatest strength of Adventist churches, I believe, are the sense of community they foster, and the Sabbath. The connectedness of the faith is powerful and inviting and has been very rewarding to me and my family. The Sabbath and the rest and the coming apart have given me a connection with God and family that I believe is of divine design and intent.
What I struggle with in the institutional church is that we have become a church of rule, much like the Pharisees. These rules — although well intended — have become more important than the principles that underlie them.
The second thing I struggle with is that we have failed to live out the gospel as it is set out in Matthew 25. We make attempts, but we are more concerned with appearance than we are about actual practice. I fear that many will be on the on the right side of the “rules,” but the wrong side of the judgment.
The final thing that concerns me within Adventism is the recurring rise of perfection doctrines within the church. The Last Generation Theology (LGT) is the latest iteration. This type of theological thinking creates this drive to create rules so that we can define perfection, and can “know” that we are indeed progressing toward salvation or are in fact saved.
Where do you see yourself in five years?
I hope that I will be working full time at whatever the Lord leads us to do. Given my skills and work experience I expect it will be in the area of aviation operations, doing something such as flying for a major air carrier or in the more technical part of the flying business: flight test. I could end up back in government working on issues related to transgender inclusion, but I doubt that will be full time.
In five years I will have been living full time with the world seeing me as the woman I am, married to the same beautiful and amazing lady I am today. I doubt we will have grandchildren yet, but it certainly could happen. I hope that I will have been a positive, loving voice in a challenging discussion in the church and the broader society.
How have you seen the church’s attitudes towards gay, lesbian and transgender individuals change in your lifetime? How do you anticipate them changing further?
Clearly within the church you can find those who have moderated their tone and even their stance on LGBTQI people, but the official position stands as it does, with non-inclusion unless you are celibate as the stated policy.
If, as I suspect, the US Supreme Court rules in favor of “same sex marriage” the church will likely have to moderate its stance to at least accommodate those who come to Adventism already married, just as we have accommodated those who came to the church already in polygamous marriages from cultures where that is acceptable.
On the issue of transgender acceptance, the church has not taken a formal stance, although the Biblical Research Institute did issue a paper earlier this year. If the BRI paper is adhered to, we will end up in much the same place as we are with the LGB portion of the group — which is really a very unaccepting position.
If you look to the millennial generation, I believe that there is hope for radical change: that our church forms a doctrine that is based on monogamous committed relationships.
On the transgender front, we could save ourselves much grief and bring a great deal of healing by simply following the biblical lead as patterned for eunuchs of old. Although many in the transgender community don’t like the association, in a careful reading of the relevant scriptures one can, without manipulation, include what we today call transgender people. We can find it in both testaments, even spoken directly by Christ. Finally we see an apostle act on it by baptizing a eunuch.
The subject of this interview has requested to remain anonymous at this time, because of her current employment at an Adventist institution, and the employment of family members at Adventist institutions. She hopes to speak publicly in the future.
How can one believe anything you say on this topic when you have said openly that you are bias on the gay issue?
Vicki solid reasoning is supported by the Bible. Yours.. ..well
It’s quite revealing that you call anything which involves personally shared experiences a “nutjob” website, and seem to discredit anyone who has been hurt by a sex change experience. You and other supporters of homosexuality would probably be absolutely beside yourself with taking offence at anyone who would dare to use any type of slang “homophobic” terms to denigrate someone who is homosexual – but yet you freely throw denigrating slang terms around in describing those who have had painful experiences with sex change and want to share their sad experience. Are you really so “compassionate” then? Or are you only compassionate toward those who agree with a certain agenda?
Please take note that I do not throw denigrating slang around in my descriptions of homosexuals. I may strongly disagree with the premise and the principle, I may point out specific instances which reflect something to be honestly concerned about, and I speak against sexual immorality and sexual perversion- especially the kind that leads to abuse of innocent children, but I do not use slander tactics such as these kinds of slang terms. You might think that taking a stance against these homosexuality at all is denigrating to them – but the Bible makes it clear that we are love the sinner, while hating the sin, and that is the standard I must go by.
I have tried to make it clear from the beginning that on an individual level I make every attempt to treat homosexual people with great love and compassion, just as I seek to treat all people with compassion – whether I disagree with their behavior or not. You have suggested that to take a stance against homosexuality at all in discussion is basically marginalizing them, but there is a time and place for discussion of these matters. I suppose you think that we should let them freely come into the church and join every activity without saying a word against it as well. If you think that homosexual individuals might feel marginalized by any stance Christians may take against it in the church you should also advise them not to read the Bible either- where they will find that homosexuality is clearly condemned as evil.
Social opinion and God’s expressed will are two entirely different things. The church is founded by God and through God and guided by His Word. We do not change the church based on popular societal opinion if we truly believe that God exists and established the church.
It all boils down to this – God’s Word. That’s exactly what you are arguing against and trying to disprove with all the pro-gay studies. I have already addressed the fact that the research of mankind can easily be biased and wrong. I demonstrated this by asking you how you can believe that God even exists if you want to put science above the Bible, because the great majority of scientific research about origins of life is used to support evolution rather than Creation. But you affirmed that you do believe God exists. So you should surely be able to understand, then, that the research of mankind can be fallible and biased on a large scale, and needs to be guided by the Word of God in order to arrive at accurate conclusions.
In saying that you ignore studies that you do not like I meant in your own research- because studies have been done and some were even posted in this very discussion, but you do not acknowledge as credible. I have not taken the time to look into a lot of extra evidence or even go into this discussion very deeply because I have such a limited amount of time – I have a life to live outside of social media. Jason already posted some good resource links of studies and research, there are also many others available for anyone who is looking.
You have demonstrated clearly that regardless of how many references are made to credible evidence you would disregard it- so it doesn’t really matter if I do hours of research to try to investigate every claim you have made.
And even if it could be proven without a doubt that there is no research supporting this stance at all (which is not the case), we still have the Bible as our eternal guide – and it takes a clear stance against homosexuality from the beginning to the end. It’s not just an old testament matter either – the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for sexual perversion and homosexuality are listed as an example throughout the New Testament
I’ve heard your arguments for how you don’t believe the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had anything to do with homosexuality and how you don’t seem to see anything in the Word of God condemning it. That is a very inaccurate interpretation of which is something akin to taking a pair of scissors to God’s Word to cut out the parts you don’t like.
Jesus Himself weighed in on the marriage and gender question by saying clearly that marriage was between a man and a woman;
Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
It’s important to note that He also refers marriage as being defined by the ability to sexually unite. Sexual union is something that two people of the same gender are physically incapable of accomplishing. They can have sexual activity- but never sexual union.
You said; “Even tho you claim Intersex is rare this alone should prove beyond doubt to you that there is more, rare or not, than just the plain simple male-female. Sometimes it is genetics sometimes it is biology sometimes it is psychology sometimes it is a mixture of all....Who are we to claim that this doesnt exist? Who are we to claim that psychlogical doesnt matter? Etc”
I’m not saying it doesn’t matter. From the beginning I plainly said that people who truly have conditions of intersex might have genuine feelings of sexual confusion. Here is a quote from my comment on the top of page 10 of this discussion; “it's true that some people are born with gender birth defects, and people who have multiple gender chromosomes might genuinely struggle with gender identity.”
You proved these and other intersex conditions are rare by the statistics link you posted. (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency) Furthermore, the inter-sex conditions listed in the link officially disorders.
The list include things such as hypospadias (urethral opening in the wrong place) – which my grandfather had. He was happily married to my grandmother for most of his adult life and had two children. He never made one mention of same-sex attraction in his entire life, to my knowledge. So perhaps they’re trying to grasp at everything they possibly can to put on the list of “intersex” conditions.
I made the point that it is very strange for the pro-gay community to try to claim disorders or disease as the justification for homosexuality, while at the same time claiming that homosexuality is a “normal” non-disease condition.
The same link lists “Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female; one in 100 births.” So, including things like hypospadius (which as I said doesn’t cause homosexuality because my grandfather had it), they have come up with roughly one percent. That cannot be construed as “common” or “non-rare” by anyone’s standards, even if it were truly one in 100 (1%). But quite honestly- I don’t know how they arrived at this number by adding up a column of statistics in which most of them were mostly anywhere from 1 in 1,000 to one in 150,000 births. Only one of the conditions listed there has less than one in 1,000 births occurrence (besides hypospadias which is one in 770), but suddenly when they add up all the numbers it totals about “one in 100.” It looks like they might need to re-check their figures, or perhaps they are falsifying their totals.
Nevertheless, lets give them the benefit of the doubt and compare the number “one in 100” with the statistics of those who list same sex attraction and see what percentage of these disorders could be associated with those who have it.
Wikipedia lists LGBT demographics at this link;
Here is an excerpt of statistics; “The 2011 Williams Institute report also states that 8.2 percent of Americans reported that they had engaged in same-sex sexual behavior, and 11 percent reported some same-sex attraction. Studies from several nations, including the U.S., conducted at varying time periods, have produced a statistical range of 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the adult population identifying as LGBT. Online surveys tend to yield higher figures than other methods, a likely result of the higher degree of anonymity of Internet surveys, which elicit reduced levels of socially desirable responding.”
So here we see clearly that while possibly at max only 1% of the population may have intersex conditions by the link you posted, Wikipedia reports that up to 8% of Americans have reported engaging in same-sexual behavior and 11% having same-sex attraction.
It is therefore obvious that for at least 7-10% of those it could have nothing to do with intersex conditions since no more than 1% at most of the population has intersex conditions.
In regards to your claim that pedophilia and transexualism were never connected you clearly ignored the reference to my Wikipedia link I shared which unquestionably links pedophilia with one of the pioneers of transexualism. So lets look into this a little deeper;
Wikipedia says of John Money; “Money was one of the first scientists to study the psychology of sexual confusion and how the societal constructs of “gender” affect an individual. His work has been both celebrated for its innovation and criticized, particularly in regard to his involvement with the sex-reassignment of David Reimer. Money published around 2,000 articles, books, chapters and reviews. His writing has been translated into many languages. Money has also received around 65 world-wide honors, awards and degrees.” “Money was the co-editor of a 1969 book "Transsexualism and Sex Reassignment", which helped bring more acceptance to sexual reassignment surgery and transgender individuals.” “... Money created the now-common term ‘gender role’...”
Wikipedia goes on to say “In 2000, David and his twin brother (Brian) alleged that Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving (**** UNMENTIONABLE FORCED SEXUAL ABUSE HERE DESCRIBED****) Money reportedly took photographs of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".
Wikipedia continues; “For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case", describing apparently successful female gender development and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. Money wrote, "The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother." Notes by a former student at Money's lab state that, during the follow-up visits, which occurred only once a year, Reimer's parents routinely lied to lab staff about the success of the procedure.”
Note the results of his work; “On 5 May 2004, after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and marriage troubles. David Reimer committed suicide. Reimer's parents have stated that Money's methodology was responsible for the deaths of both of their sons.”
“John Money was critical in debates on chronophilias, especially pedophilia. He stated that both sexual researchers and the public do not make distinctions between affectional pedophilia and sadistic pedophilia. Money asserted that affectional pedophilia was about love and not sex.”
In other words, Wikipedia is saying that John Money openly condoned pedophilia as long as it was “affectional” instead of “sadistic.” Here is what John Money said in his own words;
“If I were to see the case of a boy aged ten or eleven who's intensely erotically attracted toward a man in his twenties or thirties, if the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual ... then I would not call it pathological in any way.”
SOURCE; WIKIPEDIA; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
In reference to the comment I made about article listing doctors who founded sex change surgery (http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/), you said “the claim that transsexualism was started by pedophiles is a complete lie.”
But here I have listed incontrovertible evidence that proves it is not a "lie," affirming the validity of the public discourse article that pointed out the connection between pedophilia and the founders of transsexualism.
Do you still see people like John Money as a hero and all those who disagree with his work or were hurt by this type of work as “nutjobs?” If you don’t call this pedophilia or sexual abuse and don’t sympathize with the pain that it caused these two brothers – that would only strengthen my case that those who are in favor of homosexuality are either also in favor of pedophilia or simply turn a blind eye to it.
Regarding Alfred Kinsey, who you have vehemently defended, the following quotes from a Wikipedia link show that he was obviously very sexually disturbed, perverted and promiscuous. If you think that this man is someone that Bible believing Christians should support or have anything to do with at all- I would seriously question your version of what Christianity entails. I have used Wikipedia since you might freely call anything else that doesn’t support your opinions “nutjob.”
“Personal habits...As a young man, Kinsey began inserting objects into his urethra – initially drinking straws before moving on to pipe cleaners, pencils and finally a toothbrush – to punish himself for having homoerotic feelings, and inserting toothbrushes continued throughout his adult life. After becoming accustomed to the pain of urethral insertions, Kinsey circumcised himself without anaesthesia.”
“Controversial aspects...Kinsey's research went beyond theory and interview to include observation of and participation in sexual activity, sometimes involving co-workers. Some of the data published in the two Kinsey Reports books is controversial in the scientific and psychiatric communities, due to the low amount of research that was done and Kinsey's decision to interview and sexually experiment with volunteers who may not have been representative of the general population. Kinsey justified this sexual experimentation as being necessary to gain the confidence of his research subjects. He encouraged his staff to do likewise, and to engage in a wide range of sexual activity, to the extent that they felt comfortable; he argued that this would help his interviewers understand the participant's responses. Kinsey filmed sexual acts which included co-workers in the attic of his home as part of his research, Biographer Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy explains that this was done to ensure the films' secrecy, which would have caused a scandal had it become public knowledge. James H. Jones, author of Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life, and British psychiatrist Theodore Dalrymple, amongst others, have speculated that Kinsey was driven by his own sexual needs.”
“Kinsey collected sexual material from around the world, which brought him to the attention of U.S. Customs when they seized some pornographic films in 1956; he died before this matter was resolved legally.”
“Kinsey wrote about pre-adolescent orgasms using data in tables 30 to 34 of the male volume, which report observations of orgasms in over three-hundred children between the ages of five months and fourteen years. This information was said to have come from adults' childhood memories, or from parent or teacher observation. Kinsey said he also interviewed nine men who had sexual experiences with children, and who told him about the children's responses and reactions. Little attention was paid to this part of Kinsey's research at the time, but where Kinsey had gained this information began to be questioned nearly 40 years later. It was later revealed that Kinsey used data from a single pedophile and presented it as being from various sources.”
So, for one thing, whether or not he engaged in pedophilia himself he condoned it by publishing the research of a pedophile. And besides that, Wikipedia openly says that he claimed he got the information from various sources when it was actually supposedly from one source. So who knows if he might have also lied about conducting some of the pedophilia experiments himself?
It has been suggested that ideas that Kinsey promoted in his famous book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male," include that children are sexual from birth; sexual promiscuity is normal; rape is one of the most "forgettable" crimes against women; the only difference between the average man and the sex offender is that one got caught and the other didn't. I haven’t verified that the book says these things – but it would be well worth taking note that this may be the case. If so, that is clearly encouragement of pedophilia.
As the link I posted mentioned that Dr. Alfred Kinsey and Dr. Harry Benjamin were colaborers in the first case of “transsexualism” (sex change surgery), which Wikipedia confirms – and Benjamin gave the child estrogen and referred him to Germany for sex change surgery.
Here is an article from the American College of Pediatrics which indicates a link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Since it is short and meaningful, I have quoted it in its entirety. It makes mention of Dr. Kinsey’s work;
“Driving in this morning I began to wonder. Why isn’t the movement of LGBT not the PLGBT movement: “P” for pedophile?
“When I look at the origins of the transgender movement I find John Money and Harry Benjamin, both bisexuals, who failed to condemn pedophiles, and freely associated with them.
“When I look at the data from Donald Paul Sullins taken from the Add Health Survey, I see a 7 fold increase in child sexual abuse when lesbian couples get married, compared to when they stayed unmarried. Incest is a form of pedophilia.
“When I look at sexual minorities studies examining for a history of childhood sexual abuse, I see rates as high as 75%. They were victims of pedophilia. Some of them do engage in pedophilia. In addition, we know that victims of child sexual abuse engage in same sex behavior at higher rates, averaging 4x, but up to 7x higher than their non-victimized peers, depending on the study.
“When I look at criminology data on adult or juvenile sex offenders, I see many of them were childhood victims of pedophilia or incest. Juvenile offenders that sexual abuse minors preferentially select the sex of the victim to be the same as the one that sexually victimized them.
“When I look at sex education in schools, I see Alfred C. Kinsey, and his colleagues, and I see pansexuality and an embracing of pedophilia, along with bestiality.
“Child pornography exploits children. It is the worst sort of exploitation in the age of the internet and storage of images. If pedophilia becomes the new norm, the explosion of exploitation will be unparalleled.
“In one sense, it could be argued that the LGBT movement is only tangentially associated with pedophilia. I see that argument, but the pushers of the movement, the activists, I think have pedophilia intrinsically woven into their agenda. It is they who need to be spoken to and against.”
Homosexuality does represent a general moral decline in our country which will lead to every form of sexual evil including pedophilia.
The American College of Pediatrics has also taken a stance against gay marriage for the sake of children;
"In a statement released Friday, the president of the American College of Pediatricians said the Supreme Court’s decision to legalize same-sex marriage will have a significantly negative impact on children in the United States....The College itself has maintained that a significant body of research has demonstrated that 'same-sex marriage deliberately deprives the child of a mother or a father, and is therefore harmful.'"
Perhaps you will discredit the validity of “The American College of Pediatrics” because you do not agree with them. That is a pattern we have clearly seen in your posts.
I have spend 5 or more hours looking into these resources, all of which confirmed the same thing I already posted. I don’t really have time to go into investigating each and every claim which you have made here. There is enough evidence for those who would be willing to believe. For those who are not willing to believe, nothing will be enough evidence to convince them.
May the Lord bless you, Manuela. I pray that you will consider more consistently and fairly how to apply principles of Christian compassion to those who are victims of sin in this world, instead of continuing to encourage the very behaviors that cause more hurt and pain, and which cause the cycle of pain and abuse to continue to feed on itself.
Jesus loves sinners and hates sin- and so do I. There is true healing to be found in God’s power- healing from degradation, sin, sexual addiction, and confusion of every kind.
The beauty, freedom and peace which God’s power can bring to our lives is far surpassing “the pleasures of sin for a season.”
Take care and God bless,
I desire to sign out of this discussion. Enough evidence is there that willing hearts may investigate these matters for themselves if they have further questions.
The Bible is our eternal Guide and the only source to help human beings find the course of eternal life- it points to freedom from slavery to sin, instead of living crippled lives going to worse and worse degrees in sinful indulgence of degrading sin and crime.
Thank God for Jesus Christ who gives us the victory over sin- and the power to live a life of freedom and love.
May God bless all who read.
agreed Vicki don't waste your time on this. You did a great Job
Remember Matthew 7:6
CLARIFICATION, I said;
"So here we see clearly that while possibly at max only 1% of the population may have intersex conditions by the link you posted, Wikipedia reports that up to 8% of Americans have reported engaging in same-sexual behavior and 11% having same-sex attraction.... It is therefore obvious that for at least 7-10% of those it could have nothing to do with intersex conditions since no more than 1% at most of the population has intersex conditions."
I'm counting the 7-10% by subtracting 1% from the 8% (of Americans have reported engaging in same-sexual behavior) and from the 11%(having same-sex attraction) mentioned by Wikipedia.
8% - 1% = 7%
11% - 1% = 10%
So I said 7-10% of those who have engaged in same-sexual behavior or had same sex attractions cannot possibly have intersex conditions because the number it exceeds 1% of the population.
But if you look at in another way, by dividing the leftover 7% and 10% by the respective total number of those who have engaged in same-sexual behavior or had same sex attractions it would appear as follows;
7/8 = 87.5% of those who have engaged in same-sexual behavior cannot possibly have intersex conditions.
10/11 = 90.9% of those who have had same sex attractions cannot possibly have intersex conditions.
That's just figured according to the link you provided regarding the prevalence of intersex conditions, compared to the link I posted of Wikipedia's statistics for the prevalence of same-sex behaviors and same sex activities.
So, as I said previously - intersex conditions cannot be used as a general justification for most homosexual behavior.
Take care and God bless.
this will be my last reply because this discussion is so far off track already and i realized after a long time thinking the underlying problem.
So let me ask you very directly:
Are Transsexualism otherwise known as Gender Identity Disorder and Homosexuality the same thing for you?
If yes it would explain a lot of your posts but this would also mean there is absolutely no point talking about it because they are absolutely not the same thing...
In your opening post which triggered this discussion you made some statements and claim in regards to transgender and claimed Intersex conditions are rare while at the same time there are many transsexuals who regret a sex reassignment.
Now since i knew that this has been studied long time and 2,2% end up regretting this i asked you for sources and told you that Intersex conditions are not that rare as you make it out to be. Link to the 50 year study showing that i already provided.
You came back with websites showing some individuals rather than a study.
Dont get me wrong now 2,2% regretting a decision is not nothing but it sure doesnt qualify as many or most as the website you posted declares and these numbers are dropping further as the medical knowledge and the treatments get better.
However this surely makes one wonder about your narrative you try to frame. 1% Intersex qualifies as "rare". Ok fine.
2,2% regretting Sex Surgeries which were often mandatory (otherwise sais: forced onto the individual) qualifies as "many". Really?
Than you move on with your rant on what i might or might not say and how even claim i would say GID or intersex condition cause homosexuality.
I would never claim or say anything like that because i know that gender identity and sexual orientation are 2 complete different issues and things which are only very vaguely connected and not one leading to the other.
Intersex are conditions which are mainly based on genes and where there is often a physical discrepancy between a "normal" gender and intersex.
GID is a condition which is mainly based on psychological (genes and brain chemistry and other abnormalities influence) conditions where there is mostly not a physical discrepancy to a "normal" gender person.
Neither of these conditions lead or cause homosexuality however both IS and GID have in common that they challenge a gender binary form and both communities joined the ranks of the LGB people to fight and stop the daily discrimination they face. All this doesnt make them homosexuals and as long as you keep mixing this all together there is no wonder that these discussions will not lead anywhere.
I gave you 7 studies for GID where you can educate yourself in response i still have 0 but that is fine.
However i would like to address one of your many attempts in your rant about stating things i said which i never actually did. (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah; etc etc):
"In regards to your claim that pedophilia and transexualism were never connected you clearly ignored the reference to my Wikipedia link I shared which unquestionably links pedophilia with one of the pioneers of transexualism. So lets look into this a little deeper;"
See that? You state i said something which i never did.
Your original claim was stating that transsexualism was invented or born by pedophiles.
I declined that assessment because it is complete nonsense and wrong and even showed you that "transgender" "transsexualism" "third gender" etc whatever you want to name it has been present throughout history and for thousands of years. Yes there have been doctors working within the field of sexual studies, note the including term which does include heterosexuality, with questionable morales. As example Dr Kinsey and his non-reporting-crimes policy. And yes there have been errors in the past.
However i could make the very same claim as you did in regards to heterosexuality after all we know that most pedophiles are heterosexuals. Would you accept such a claim? Surely not you would go ahead and declare me stupid because heterosexuality has been around since ages and only when person x who studies heterosexuality was a pedophile doesnt mean he crated it nor does it mean that you can connect heterosexuality to pedopheli.
In regards to the American College of Pediatricians there is no need to "discredit" them as you so claim. One just needs to look in the history of that Organization and reason why they split 2013 with 60 out of 60.000 pediatricians from the American Academy of Pediatrics.
However the American Academy of Pediatrics filed amicus briefs and issues statements as well which read:
“Stable relationships with caring adults are important for children, and so are financial security, social support and access to health care. Scientific evidence shows that there is no cause-and-effect relationship between parents’ sexual orientation and children’s well-being...."
Our Church by the way filed an amicus brief as well with the supreme court supporting neither side in the marriage case which i found quite interesting.
But none of that is the topic at hand. While it is arguable important the issue in this topic is transgender and not homosexuals. As much as you would like to connect the 2 things and mingle them into one single thing to condemn them all it is not the same thing.
If you would read the studies and sources provided you could clearly see that as well given your logical reasoning is not (temporarily) disabled or purposely ignored.
This might be long sorry for that . Please read it all . I do empathize with you .Why do you keep yourself though the agony of these kind discussions? You can not change their minds on the topic. You will only get you are a sinner . Yet that is what we all are and in need of Christ. Believe when I say this I do love you . Because you are love my God . I could care less what you are it does not change love for you . I do not and can not judge you. I was a far worse person than anyone here ever thought to be . In the old testament I would have be stoned for half the things I did in life . When first came into the Adventist Church I offended most of the members . They me called a barbarian . I believed must of the teachings of the church but they had no power to change what I was . I think even you would have felt uncomfortable . I was bordering a sociopathic behavior .
Back then I had a well-chiseled dark tan body with long blond hair and deep blue eyes . I found church girls strangely attracted to sweet talking barbarian who seemed to know bible well. I had strong lean to Asian girls . I had very strong dislike to most white Adventist men. I thought they were all sissies . That has changed now. I love them now . I still think must are weak but I no longer hold that against them . I try hard to help them up their self worth and stop their annoying passive aggressive behavior.
It is so common in white Adventist males, maybe it it is a white male thing. I was not raised around them much . My father went prison for man slaughter . I was a witness to it . My mother took me to live in government housing .There witnessed a murder . My mom abandoned me there . She ran off with some pot dealer . She heavy into smoking marijuana and sleeping with any man who treated her nice.
Back to what I saying I learned the bible quickly. I have an I.Q 138 so it was not the Holy Spirit leading me as many thought. I had not changed even after getting a B.A. in Theology . Be careful many in have an appearance of Godliness but have no Holy Spirit. I married to a Chinese lady and two daughters who I loved in a selfish way. Yet, I did really love my I married her because she was very beautiful . I loved violence Who knows maybe I have the MAOA-L gene makes you have low Monoamine oxidase A which breaks down important neurotransmitters in the brain .Which influences aggressive behavior, with potentially important implications for interpersonal aggression, violence, political decision-making, and crime. I might have been a hero in old times but looked as beast now. My father was super aggressive as are his brothers . My siblings are and so all relatives . Everyone of served in the military . I was a Marine for four years. They did not re-up me because I was too violent for the Marines . I had to use sports to control my violence. I know sports do not make people violent . Violent people are better at sports . So many athletes hit their wives . I can empathize with them . I have brought a few athletes to the church . They have a special place in my heart . Needless to the violent behavior toward wife always, thinking she was not faithful , yelling at her lead to to be unfaithful . With a choir member , she started going to a bible study with him and they fell in love. Strange I always spoiled my daughters never once spanked or even yelled at them. I was a student pastor then. We later divorced and I kind left the church in my heart .I came here to Taiwan . I taught English and lots of money and played and partied at clubs I still went on Sabbath by habit . I went to play basketball every Sabbath after church. I had a few relationship with girls from church. Even one who was married . Sorry I was not a righteous guy then . Then I met current wife . Our second date we went to play basketball she made a three point shot I thought wow I love this lady . Then we played 1 on 1 I knock her down . She got and kept playing I fell in love and ask her to marry me after the game . She said no . I asked every time we met after that we married two years later . I decided I really want to be this time . I took her to church on Sabbath . She was baptized even though she said the SDA church is cold and boring . She comes form a Pentecostal in Taipei the largest church in Taiwan . They must have six services every Sunday . I went with her the the band was nice the speaking in tongues made me laugh and laying on hands to cast out spirits really freaked me out . We didn't go back . I went to church surprisingly they made a deacon even though I was divorced . I did make renew my membership because they took me of the books before.
I would preach there once a quarter. I taught the English Sabbath school bible study . Then I blew it. My violent self came out again . I beat up the the a city council member for the neighbor where the school I worked was. I got fired and after some kowtowing the councilman forgave me and I didn't go to jail . But I lost 4000 $ US job where I worked with my wife. Things went down hill fast after that I did get a job at a Catholic High Coaching Basketball . I became moody , angry and accused my wife of having an affair with her co- worker.. She wanted me to leave but my son and I were very close so we just slept in different rooms. She stopped going to church .The one day she told me I don't love you anymore. She said wanted to kill herself but did not because of our son. I was broken . I for the first time in my life stopped blaming how I was born or how people didn't understand me . Or how the world was just weak so their were afraid of me. I quit saying it not my fault I can not control . I quit saying people should try to understand me . I quit they need people like me to protect them from the evil . I cried to God and I don't to be me anymore . I not right I have no excuse . People should not have to except me . I am violent and hurtful . I can not change myself .
God please change me I beg you . Do you know what He did? I have become meek and mild and able empathize with pain . I could not before . I can look at even the most beautiful of women with no desire except that she knows God . I could not do that before. I not try to be something just changed . Now my wife said she loves the man I have become . My players don't fear me anymore they hug me and know I will do anything for them. None of this is me .as soon I relying on Christ He will turn me over to my desires . I stay in Christ I love the what I am becoming . I in no way deserve what Christ is doing in me . I don't really understand what is like to feel the LGBT thing . Not that I did not experiment once or twice out of curiosity when I was very young . I love being a man and I love women . Only by wife now intimately. I empathize with you being misunderstood , looked down on , a threat to their neat religious world . I does not matter what others think of you . The issue won't even exist in the New Earth . None of these silly topics will . This morning I was reading Luke with my son . I finally got the gospel of Mary Magdalene. It is for people like you and me to walk past the voices that condemn and fall at Jesus feet and hear Jesus say I know who she is, I know who he is , I does not matter what others it only matter what Jesus says. He loves you , He died for you . Don't let anyone take that from you. Stay at Jesus feet and see where He takes you.
Love and peace
Amen Roland. Have a blessed day. Manuela has touch my heart also.
Thanks, Roland, for sharing your beautiful testimony! It is amazing where God can take us and the peace that only He can give us.
I've tried to make it clear that I believe in treating homosexuals with dignity and patience on a personal level. But in general we also need to make it clear to people that this is sin so that they will not be deceived and drawn in to evil.
To me this is the same kind of thing as talking about doctrines. I might preach and teach about the importance of Sabbath and how in the end of time Sunday Laws will be the mark of the beast, spoken of in Revelation 13, but that doesn't mean I hate people who keep Sunday, or that my comments are directed toward anyone personally. I still make every effort to be respectful and kind towards Christians who go to church on Sunday, and I understand that there are many factors involved with their decisions.
The same is true regarding homosexuality - I speak in a general sense in online forums about what is wrong with it and the dangers of accepting this into our church (as Christians are directed to do by the Bible - as watchmen on the wall), but when I meet homosexual people in my job or in town, etc. I make every effort to extend the compassionate love of Christ to them and don't even mention anything about how I don't agree with their lifestyle - because in person to one individual isn't the time or place to talk about these things. People's choices should be respected, regardless of how sinful, while at the same time Christians should fight the battle against letting evil take over the world and the church.
By the way- I used to live in Taiwan too- I lived there for 6 years and loved it! I consider it my second home. Taiwan is a wonderful place!
Take care and God bless,
Thanks for the kind words.
I need to correct something here i think:
"...I do empathize with you .Why do you keep yourself though the agony of these kind discussions? You can not change their minds on the topic. You will only get you are a sinner ."
I do not and never did this for me. Not in the slightest. I know who i am i know what i am i never had a problem with my identity or sexuality neither am i a lesbian. However none of that is or was thanks to the Church. Actually if the Church had its will at the time i was born i most likely would find myself doing the complete opposite assessment.
So i know personally how our Church can and does hurt people all around even those born within the fold.
The reason i am standing up now and puttig myself through the agony of these kind of discussion are two fold:
1) No matter that i left the Church i still feel somewhat connected to the Adventist community and it is statements and messages like these the Church or their Members put out on a daily basis which damage the Church.
2) Even more important than point 1 people all around seem to forget that they are not talking from a theoretical experiment or similar things. They cause damage and hurt people all around them inside and outside of the Church.
It could be the brethren next to you in Sabbath School who just isnt ready yet to talk about it but has a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder. Yet you keep telling that person indirectly that his truth is not real. His feelings must be ignored. His reality is not of God. He is an abomination.
It could be the child in the Churches kindergarten group realizing he or she is gay. Yet you keep telling that child its a sin. You keep denying that child its dignity and respect by talking of hell and gods punish. You scare the child to ever talk about it in the Church. You cause real psychological harm.
And so on...
People here always claim "we love homosexuals as we do everyone" yet they keep talking of "them" and about the abominations about the unforgiveable sin. Some even talk about hell where these people would go to and so on. This is happening on a daily basis within our Churches and our Forums.
And than we wonder why people dont perceive the Church as a safe place? As a hospital for all sinners? and so on..
It is neither of these things as long as we keep talking this way about people sitting right next to us but unable or unwilling to talk about it in the Church and no none of these message speak about love.
This is NOT love ever and claiming it is is ridiculing everything our Church supposedly stands for.
So yes i put myself through the agony of these discussions.
Not for me but for all these people who are being hurt by stupidity ignorance and hatred on a daily basis within our community. If that agony of discussion reaches just one who has troubles wit the messages and shows that one person that there is a different viewpoint and hope within the community it was worth it. If i am able to just help one person it would be more than all those wrong messages ever did and ever will accomplish.
However to say it bluntly i am seriously worn out. It is not just here its from the day i was born i have to fight for a little respect dignity and understanding for people who happen to be born differently than the normative, myself included. I will very soon cut all ties and be done with this constant fighting. Let them have it their way maybe someday they will understand what they are doing and what damage they cause and how nothing of that is done out of love.
Latest Christ will tell it..
I was working at an Adventist International in Taipei . They kept kicking out students who had problems with controlling their . They would put on their record . I strongly disagreed . Most of those they did this too were on my basketball team. In meetings I would argue that more sports and exercise and introducing them to the love of Jesus would help them more than always telling them how wrong they . They believe if those boys just try harder they can control themselves. I kept treating the with kindness playing ball them everyday after school . One boy lost his temper they kicked out even after had not lost his temper for awhile . I complained again , then during assembly I gave a sermon about how God works in people lives though love. They did not renew my contract . I kept in contact with the boy . He is now baptized. I believe that there are somethings those raised in church have a super hard time excepting. They tend to be so passive aggressive and afraid of everything. They are in need of Christ . So I have chosen to love them at church and do my own thing with over aggressive youth . So far I don't even bother to bring them to church it would not help .
I think them bible and play sports in the park with them .
2 You may know that there is nothing wrong with what you do, even from God’s point of view, but keep it to yourself; don’t flaunt your faith in front of others who might be hurt by it. In this situation, happy is the man who does not sin by doing what he knows is right. 23 But anyone who believes that something he wants to do is wrong shouldn’t do it. He sins if he does, for he thinks it is wrong, and so for him it is wrong. Anything that is done apart from what he feels is right is sin.
I think this means some for things we must fight our own battle . Find support where can you get it .There are many who not agree with using street basketball as an out reach. They I play it just for me. So I do it on my own . I don't even talk it at church.
16 Don’t do anything that will cause criticism against yourself even though you know that what you do is right.
17 For, after all, the important thing for us as Christians is not what we eat or drink but stirring up goodness and peace and joy from the Holy Spirit. 18 If you let Christ be Lord in these affairs, God will be glad; and so will others. 19 In this way aim for harmony in the church, and try to build each other up.
Eat and drink could be anything we don't feel God is convicting us on . Harmony is the important thing. . God leads different people to different ministry . He does want anyone to be lost. You have a ministry maybe you need to do it alone or God might be preparing people to help you . I plan to plant a church here the church members are looking for different kind of people than me. They what straight laced conservative Taiwanese . They won't many like that any more only the older people are like that now. I think they are wrong with their in their out dated traditional ways of reaching people. We need the Holy Spirit.
My point is I believe no matter how much you present research even if it is very valid no one it won't change preconceived ideas . Pray hard , be soft , present the cross and people change. The church need to be filled with the Holy Spirit then love will come.
Be filled the Spirit and you see great things .
Amen, beautiful. Jesus is the ONLY answer.
The other day I got criticized for using the phrase," Cast the first Stone," on this forum. But I still believe Christ's words when He said let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Safe in the arms of Jesus.