the votes were 185 for 124
Thanks for your reply Reasoning.
Reasoning wrote: Also, even though I respect the vote, and it should be respected, I don't believe a vote is akin to the "Holy Spirit said"... But that's me.
Yes, clearly we have different views on that. So in your opinion when does God speak to the church I think you will be familiar with the old testament where they drew a lot. A vote would be akin to a drawing of a lot would it not? What happened in Acts 15 where there was a dispute whereas to circumcision for gentiles? They had a council where they could put their opinions forward and most likely had a vote after. The letter they wrote after the meeting says “It seems good to us and the Holy Spirit” My experience with the Holy Spirit is that the messages I get are very subtle, and at times I realize I have missed the message. But clearly, if you do not think GOD would send a message in the form of a vote you are clearly not going to get the message.
Reasoning wrote: What terrible things do we see in the other churches brother Ian?
I suggest you look at the Video once more and see how Churches are losing members how the Homosexuals become Ordained pastors soon after. I do not think God would set us on a slippery slope like that.
Reasoning wrote: Again, you don't know what I want, it's just assumptions on your part. Please, do yourself a favor, unless you inquire exactly what I believe, don't assume. That's why I'm asking you many questions, and I appreciate you taking the time to answer, but I don't assume what you think, I let you tell me.
I apologize for assuming things about what you think it is a bad habit of mine.
Permit me to share this presentation for everyone to review:
My beloved brother Bertrand
God had spoken true her Church (GC) three time in a row. The Bible say what is biding on earth is also biding in heaven.
I personally do not trust the magazine Spectrum.
Good day Benicio,
Thank you for your response. I am at present assessing all the occasions within the Adventist History with regard to Female Pastors' being granted the title of ordained. However, permit me to place before you gentlemen the question posed:
Whereas the unity for which Jesus prayed is vitally important to the witness of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and; Whereas the Seventh-day Adventist Church seeks to engage every member in its world wide mission to make disciples of Jesus Christ among people from every nation, culture and ethnicity,and;Whereas various groups appointed by the General Conference and its divisions have carefully studies the Bible and Ellen G White writings with respect to the ordination of women and have not arrived at consensus as to whether ministerial ordination for women is unilaterally affirmed or denied, and;Whereas the Seventh-day Adventist Church affirms that “God has ordained that the representatives of His Church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference Session, shall have authority,Therefore, the General Conference Executive Committee requests delegates in their sacred responsibility to God at the 2015 General Conference Session to respond to the following question: After your thorough study of the Bible, the writings of Ellen G White, and the reports of the study commissions on ordination, and; After your careful consideration of what is best for the Church and the fulfillment of its mission,Is it acceptable for division executive committees, as they may deem it appropriate in their territories, to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry? Yes or No.
This question does not ask whether or not female pastors should be given the title ordained minister, and neither does it imply such. What this question asked is whether or not it is ok for division executive committees to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry. Which means if they vote no, it is up to the General Conference to decide on that subject matter. I have to go back to 1995 and 1990 to see what was the questions posed. But I am already studying beyond that.
On the other hand, whoever the Biblical author or authors are of the first letter to Timothy, please not the author said that he or they do not let women do certain things within their circle because of their view on what take place in Eden; but that is not God's view. Big difference. Moreover, if God call man and woman to preach and teach which what the role of the pastor is, do they not deserve double honour? My brother, gender role - that is what a married couple do at home is far different from God's work that he give to you, me or a female or male pastor.
Moreover, I have worked with female pastors of the Adventist Organisation, and they do not condone any foolishness or behaviour, and they work in saving souls. So I laying before you learned men, the question why do they not want to give female pastors the title of ordained so that they can get tax exemptions, get more monies in hand to reach communities, build churches, baptize and so on, because they are already doing that, so what is wrong with giving them a little more privileges that they can reach more souls?
Garth look at this video it only 8 minutes long
Hi Elijah, if that video is your attempt to answer the questions posed then you have not answered the question and as such I say try again.
In addition to that question, can it be argued that the Adventist Organisation is discriminating against its female pastors? Moreover, can it be argued that those who are in control of the church and its purse are barring female pastors from enjoying the title and the privilege because they want to keep a certain image and church policy, and do not care anything about calling?
Wow seems to me Garth that you do not think that the Holy Spirit was Guiding the GC Session in 2015 where He said NO to WO. And here you are saying we are discriminating. I am not concerned with what others think I will rather be led by the Holy Spirit just like the Pioneers of the Church.
In regard to your post the Holy Spirit was not guiding their decision. It is an established fact that individuals base on their reasoning and their religious view made a choice themselves.
The fact is that where it comes to giving female pastor the opportunity to be granted the title ordained the Adventist administration have made it a talking point but have not effectively treated with it. I think Dr. Maxwell said it best when he said:
"for the sake of saving money, the denomination deprived ordination of much of its distinctiveness. No longer did the General Conference look on ordination as a calling whose nature was determined by Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. No longer was the work of the ordained minister a matter for theological study; instead, it was a matter for committee action and administrative policy. And this view appears to be the reflected in the NAD's official position today in regard to the role of women".
The Adventist administration is a business, it was incorporated. And to it giving its female pastors the title ordain to do gospel ministry - that is the Conference work of baptising, establishing churches, getting tax exemptions, hosting weddings, teaching other about God and so on - is something they say they want to do but in actually they don't want to. And that is where the talking point should be around. why? Why are they discriminating against their female pastors, when they, although there were men contribution, but let me say again, when they, the female pastors, who are predominant in this administration have brought this church to where it is today? why did they turn the tables on commissioned pastors? Another talking point is the destructiveness of church policy. Another, the scrupulous behavior of the Church leaders and its impact on female pastors. Because at the end of the day the Adventist Administration lives on policy and church manual, and this dictate who can do and who cannot do anything and a culture sprung from that. So much so you have civil war for positions.
Thanks for your reply, Garth.
Garth said: In regard to your post the Holy Spirit was not guiding their decision. It is an established fact that individuals base on their reasoning and their religious view made a choice themselves.
Garth, you seem to pretend to know a lot about the inner workings of the SDA Church for someone who is not even an Adventist. Besides as a Zionist, I believe you do not acknowledge the Holy Spirit. So, therefore, you do not know how the Holy Spirit works on our heart and our decisions. I do admit that the SDA Church has many faults but we do believe in the works of the Holy Spirit. I also admit delegates has strict instructions on how to vote at times. But does not mean that the Holy Spirit was not involved in making that decision in the first place.
There are two opposing forces at work here the Devil trying to split the Church and God holding it together, if women were to be ordained as pastors there will be a split in the church. In the Bible, there is not priest apart from Jezebel who was turning Israel from God to paganism. Other than that we read about temple prostitutes. And I guess that is what you want for the SDA?
Hi Elijah thank you for your response, So am I to take it that whenever an Adventist sees one of its female pastors, he or she must persecute/embarrass /shun them because they can be tantamount to a Jezebel - one that would turn people away from God?
A Female Pastor = A Woman That Preaches+Teaches+Saves People From God's Wrath = A Prostitute/ A Jezebel - A wicked woman that would turn people away of God. Is that a sound argument?
what happen to the equality of all believers so that the message would continue to reach people from varying walks of life? If the Organisation argues that they are guided by the Holy Spirit, how is that the Holy Spirit is one sided today when compared to the biblical authors' story of the Holy Spirit that was commanding and appointing?
Thanks for your reply, Garth. Clearly, there are two forces at play here one saying NO to WO another saying yes. As it seems you are on the side of yes whereas we have seen Homosexuals will be next to be ordained as pastors. Are you in favor of Homosexuals being pastors?
Garth wrote: "A Female Pastor = A Woman That Preaches+Teaches+Saves People "
Brother Garth, that's what I'm saying to a certain degree... simply, excluding ordination and a woman being a head pastor of an SDA church, is ok for a woman to be a pastor in the SDA Church?
For me, I don't believe it needs approval from men, if the Holy Spirit endows a woman to preach, teach, and save souls... Well, if it walks and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck... If a woman is preaching the Word, teaching the Word, and saving souls, then she is a pastor.
My position is different, I'm on the side of questioning ordination itself, what if ordination was banned by human hands all together? instead of using ordination for a higher position or status and more money.... let a persons true ordination come from GOD, from their character and the work they do for GOD, men and women. This way the devil can't use this issue to distract us, and divide the Church. We can lay hands to ask for GOD'S blessing for a person in whatever level of Ministry they are in, there's no problem with that.
We can't do nothing right, we try and try, but it's like hitting our heads against the wall.. Our laying on hands for the ordination of anyone holds no weight to me.. we're dirty rags, capable of nothing right. Since there are still tears in the Church, then I'm sure some of them are ordained.. and then their ordaining other people. People who are not trully ordained by the Holy Spirit, ordaining other people? Can't be good!!
EGW: "Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office, and a recognition of one’s authority in that office. By it the seal of the church was set upon the work of God.
To the Jew, this form was a significant one. When a Jewish father blessed his children, he laid his hands reverently upon their heads. When an animal was devoted to sacrifice, the hand of the one invested with priestly authority was laid upon the head of the victim. And when the ministers of the church of believers in Antioch laid their hands upon Paul and Barnabas, they by that action asked God to bestow His blessing upon the chosen apostles, in their devotion to the specific work to which they had been appointed.
At a later date, the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. But in the setting apart of these two apostles, there is no record indicating that any virtue was imparted by the mere act of laying on of hands." —GW p.442
I'm starting think it's self that drives this on both sides of WO.. I believe once we trully realize we're nothing but filthy dirty rags, unable to determine who should be ordained, then I think we can understand it's only the Holy Spirit that does this, He is the only One who can trully ordain.
EGW: "There should be selected for the work wise, consecrated men who can do a good work in reaching souls. Women also should be chosen who can present the truth in a clear, intelligent, straightforward manner. We need among us laborers who see the need of a deep work of grace to be done in hearts; and such should be encouraged to engage in earnest missionary effort. There has long been the need for more of this class of workers. We must pray most earnestly, “Lord, help us to help one another.” Self must be buried with Christ, and we must be baptized with the Holy Spirit of God. Then will be revealed in speech, in spirit, and in our manner of labor the fact that the Spirit of God is guiding. We need as workers men and women who understand the reasons of our faith and who realize the work to be done in communicating truth, and who will refuse to speak any words that will weaken the confidence of any soul in the Word of God or destroy the fellowship that should exist between those of like faith.—Letter 54, 1909.
EGW: "All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. As they cherish the thought that Christ is their Companion, a holy awe, a sacred joy, will be felt by them amid all their trying experiences and all their tests. They will learn how to pray as they work. They will be educated in patience, kindness, affability, and helpfulness. They will practice true Christian courtesy, bearing in mind that Christ, their Companion, cannot approve of harsh, unkind words or feelings. Their words will be purified. The power of speech will be regarded as a precious talent, lent them to do a high and holy work. The human agent will learn how to represent the divine Companion with whom he is associated. To that unseen Holy One he will show respect and reverence because he is wearing His yoke and is learning His pure, holy ways. Those who have faith in this divine Attendant will develop. They will be gifted with power to clothe the message of truth with a sacred beauty."
That is someone who is trully ordained, men and women... Brother Ian, you say EGW mentions pastor, but you believe it's referring to missionary work, and I would agree, but what's your definition of being a pastor? Is it just being the head of a SDA church?
I believe it's deeper than that, because if a person, man or woman is not the head of an SDA church, that doesn't mean they are not pastors.
So, I'm not for women's ordination for your info, just in case you try to put me in your box. I'm questioning ordination, not who GOD ordaines, but more of who men chooses to ordain, and realizing that ordination from on High is recognizable by the fruits of their spirit.