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Jezel : sky Robie now is inn
sky: okay
robie_gomez: jezel watch out ur spelling
sky: hehehe hi robie
robie_gomez: hi sky
Jezel: hahahhaha
robie_gomez: ok guys u go on with ur discussion m just here trying to comprehend hehehe
Jezel: tell us more sky
Jezel: and we will listen about it
Jezel: she will ask questions later
sky: we need to understand where we are in our history
sky: we need to study the parable of Matt. 22 ... when Jesus spoke that parable he was looking down the ages... his eye was fixed upon our time...
sky: He spoke it more for us than for the Jewish people
sky: the parable started to be fulfilled for us adventists in 1844
sky: when Jesus went from the Holy to the Most Holy place
sky: He went to marriage, right?
robie_gomez: marriage?
sky: yes marriage, to the reception of His kingdom
robie_gomez: ah ok to His kingdom
sky: in that marriage the Holy City is the bride and the redeemed are the guests but that marriage did not take place and the work was not finished and there has been a long delay
sky: in the parable there are two calls, two invitations made to the adventists, first, and then the third call is to the whole world
sky: invitations to accept the merits of Jesus as our only hope for time and eternity
sky: the first call was rejected in 1888
Jezel: Sky tell Robie about the Merits of Christ
sky: first let me tell u a bit more about the parable
sky: ok?
Jezel: ok
sky: there are two calls made to us, but if both calls are rejected then it is over with the church just as the Jews rejected both calls and in A.D.34 they were left behind and the disciples of Jesus became the Early Church with the third call to the Gentiles
sky: The Jews rejected the first call of the parable before the crucifixion... then after the crucifixion they rejected the second call at Pentecost and persecuted the disciples of Jesus and these were forced to go out to the Gentiles, right?
Jezel: sky who are the Sadducees?
sky: The Sadducees and the Pharisees were the liberals and the convervatives in Christ's day; they finally put their differences aside and united against Jesus who had become their common enemy
Jezel: oh okay
sky: just as there are liberals and conservatives in the church today who have differences but will unite in the end against those who have the light of truth
sky: right?
Jezel: they are the ones who put Christ to death
Jezel: the unbelievers
sky: both were responsible for His death
sky: they were believers in the church but not in Christ
sky: they were religionists
sky: but not spiritual
sky: not born again
sky: okay
Jezel: thanks
sky: even Nicodemus , the most respected of them all was not born again
sky: the church today is full of religionists as in Christs day
sky: full of liberals and conservatives who are constantly at each other's throat so to speak
robie_gomez: Nicodemus?
sky: as in Christ's day
sky: never heard of Nicodemus?
sky: Jonn 3
sky: hehe
Jezel: nope
sky: he was highly respected and Mrs. White has a lot to say about that man
sky: he sought to have an interview with Jesus at nite
robie_gomez: never had a chance to read the bible and understand it
Jezel: can you tell me few things about him
Jezel: ???
sky: all i can say right now is that he was a very talented man and highly respected among the Jesws
Jezel: oh He is a pharisee and Jewish leader too
sky: and He wanted to have an interview with Jesus
sky: pharisee
Jezel: yes
sky: and yes a jewish leader with great influence
sky: like someone in the General Conference today
sky: he was a member of the Sanhedrin
sky: he asked Jesus, how can a man be born again?
sky: he was pulling His leg if u will
sky: Jesus told him that unless he was born from above he could not see the kingdom of His grace
sky: but anyway talk about that more later k?
sky: lets go back to the parable
Jezel: yah and must be born not with water only but by Holy Spirit
Jezel: Only God's Spirit gives new life
sky: yes jezz, right on
sky: the church rejected the first call in 1888... in 1901 Mrs. White said, "We may have to remain in this world many more years because of our insubordination." Evg.696
Jezel: The Spirit is like the wind that blows wherever it wants to
sky: yes hehe
sky: The Spirit is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all
Jezel: you can hear the wind but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going
sky: trhe HS is the Highest Influence in the universe
sky: yes thats John 3
sky: thats what Jesus said to Nicodemus
Jezel: yes
sky: okay jezz, the parable has two calls...
Jezel: okay continue
sky: the first one was rejected
sky: between the two calls there is a crucifixions
sky: the Jews rejected the first call when Jesus sent His disciples saying, "Repent and believe the Gospel, the time is fuflilled."
sky: Mark 1:15.
sky: then there was the crucifixion
sky: after the crucifixion the disciples were filled with the HS at Pentecost and they proclaimed the second call to the Jewish people
sky: it was the offer of salvation through faith in the merits of Jesus alone, the offer of pardon for crucifying the Lord of glory
sky: but that call was not only rejected but they were offended by it and they turned upon the bearers of the message
Jezel: So did they turn back and believe the good news?
sky: there was a geat persecution.... no they did not believe the good news ... they persecuted those who brought the message to them... but some accepted the message of course
Jezel: okay
Jezel: but only few accepted
Jezel: the message
sky: then the disciples of Jesus were forced to leave the church and they went to the Gentiles.
sky: yes only few
Jezel: i don't know why only few people believe about God
sky: its always been that way jezz
Jezel: and as what i have observed now many people serve the idols
sky: Many are called but few are chosen because of unbelief
Jezel: yes yes always sky
sky: all are called but only a few respond to the call but many are following man instead of the truth
sky: the truth is not popular, never
Jezel: yes your right sky
sky: never has been never will be on this earth
sky: there was a crucifixion in our history
sky: following the rejection of the first call in 1888
Jezel: only few peole study the bible and love to know about the truth
sky: it happened between 1955 and 1957
sky: yes jezz
sky: the leaders of the church "crucified" the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people
robie_gomez: never heard that
Jezel: thats the problem now sky
sky: that means that they repudiated some of the pillars of our faith in order to be accepted by the World Council of Churches
Jezel: World Council of churches?
sky: this is all documented and Mrs. White prophesied about this,,, u can read that in 1 S.M.234,235 (1888 rejection)
sky: and 204,205 (repudiation of our pillars)
sky: yes jezz WCC
sky: the church is now a member of the WCC but the leaders keep denying it
robie_gomez: okay
sky: thats why there are many who are home churching
Jezel: yes
sky: coz the church is in apostasy
sky: the "new organization" is doomed but not the members
Jezel: many church leaders right now are fighting
sky: so the next thing is the second call of the parable
sky: yes jezz so true
sky: as in Christ's day
sky: the second call of the parable will be the last call given to the adventists... its also called the latter rain
Jezel: oh thats what i read in your booklet
sky: the parable says that this second call will also be rejected
yes: you read it?
Jezel: yes
sky: THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WILL BE
Jezel: yes
sky: thats the book
sky: oh wow
sky: i didn't know u had read it jezz
sky: hehe
sky: good
sky: so the second call will be rejected as it was in 1888 but this time there will be a great persecution... the leaders and the ministers will reject the message of the merits of Jesus with all its implications and will do all in their power to prevent others from receiving it
sky: not all the ministers and leaders will reject the light though
sky: some will accept it as in Christ's day
Jezel: i am afraid if that thing happens sky
sky: i know jezz
sky: it will be solemn times
sky: persecution will force those who accept the message to leave the adventist church for good and the Lord will use them to give the loud cry to the world
sky: during the loud cry, many adventists will hear the message clearly for the first time and they will join those who give the loud cry
Jezel: but not all
sky: no not all
Jezel: some will turn away
sky: hehe
sky: many will turn away, the majority
Jezel: i know
Jezel: yes
sky: so the message will be proclaimed in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit but officially the organization will be against it
Jezel: only few will remain faithful to our Saviour
sky: yes
sky: sadly
Jezel: sky the world now is getting worse
sky: but those who accept the merits of Jesus and believe it is their privilege to claim them will be kept from every evil work and preserved for His heavenly kingdom 2 Tim.4:22,18.
sky: yes much worse by the day it seems
sky: so importatnt decisions are to be made in the near future
Jezel: you can see now different idols and images which people believe about it
sky: yes i saw what happened in the phlippines lately
sky: the idol worshipping
sky: the images and statues
Jezel: yes sky
Jezel : yes
sky: everything that is earthly and false will come back with full power to deceive
sky: so the loud cry is the third call of the parable
Jezel: just like the 10 commanments sky
Jezel: remember that movie
sky: at the end of the loud cry the Lord comes into the room to examine the guests
sky: yes of course i remember that movie hehe
sky: so the judgment of the living takes place at the end of the third call of the parable just as it says in the parable
sky: it takes place at the time of the great final test
sky: just before the close of probation
sky: those who are faithful and pass that great final test will become members of the 144,000 to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and to be translated without seeing death
sky: right? heard of that before?
Jezel: hmmppp
sky: any question, jezz or robie?
Jezel: you have told me about it
sky: okay
Jezel: Robie seems so quiet sky
sky: hehe
sky: may be she fell asleep hehe
Jezel: maybe many things bother in her mind right now
Jezel: ROBIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
sky: robie u should read that booklet
Jezel: hmmmppp
sky: shes not with us anymore?
Jezel: she is
robie_gomez: still here
sky: okay
Jezel: hahahhahha
Jezel: she is hiding
sky: hey robie, don't u worry, these things take time to study
robie_gomez: but i cant make some questions regarding that matter
sky: all u need to do is to read the little booklet on my website
robie_gomez: yeah thats why even asking questions was very hard
sky: i understand
sky: took me years to finally understand these things
Jezel: Pray for both of us sky
sky: visit my website and read the first three books
sky: www.hidden-treasures.ca
robie_gomez: what web site
robie_gomez: ok got it
sky: my website where my booklets are sky: easy to read
sky: and to follow
Jezel: like ABC
sky: THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WILL BE is the study on the parable of matt.22
sky: yes hehehe abc
sky: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." E.G. White, Faith and Works, 64
Jezel: but sky sometimes its hard to know some terms you used
sky: like what?
sky: hehe
Jezel: Probation
robie_gomez: jezel because where not used to it
Jezel: maybe Rob
Jezel: Latter Rain
sky: probation is the time in which it is still possible to accept the gospel
sky: after that time its too late
Jezel: oh okay
Jezel: Rob i know you have many questions........
sky: its too late in the sense that even if God invited u you would not respond because the heart has been so hardened
sky: latter rain simply means the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in mighty power
sky: in that sense Pentecost was the early rain
sky: early rain of the Holy Spirit
sky: the latter rain will be more powerful
Jezel: okay
Jezel: now i know
sky: hehe
sky: simple isn't it?
Jezel: yes
sky: just like it is in nature
Jezel: Robie
robie_gomez: yes jez
Jezel: you okay?
sky: we need both rains of the HS in order to grow in the likeness of Jesus
sky: "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His MERITS, we receive the blessings of pardon and light and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744
sky: simply trusting in the merits of Jesus for everything every day
Jezel: wow thats an inspiring word sky
sky: yes jezz it inspired me a lot
Jezel: me too sky
sky: "We must daily apply to the merits of Jesus that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.86.
Jezel: i always think about Christ's Merits when i feel weak and depressed
sky: yes me too
Jezel: i keep trusting
sky: i always plead them because i know its my only plea, my only argument, besides my great need
sky: "God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstasy of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.
Jezel: even my friend ladel don't know what is Christ's Merit
Jezel: i asked her about it because she is a missionary
Jezel: but she don't have any information about that
sky: i know jezz if u ask anybody if Jesus has merits, they usually respond by asking, what do u mean?
Jezel: always sky
sky: and yet its all over in our books
sky: the devil has blinded us jezz
sky: so we dont see this precious truth
Jezel: your right
Jezel: even myself
Jezel: i was blinded sometimes
sky: "The merits of Jesus are the foundation of the Christian's faith." The Great Controversy, 73.
Jezel: i can tell i easily got tempted by the evil
sky: i was blinded for many years too and i was a preacher and a bible teacher
Jezel: its a nice feeling if you keep trusting His merits
sky: "The merits of Jesus are SUFFICIENT to plead before the Father in our behalf" to receive the Gift that brings all other blessings in its train. Stepts to Christ, 36.
sky: yes jezz it brings peace
sky: the peace of Go
sky: it brings assurance
Jezel: your right sky it really brings peace, peace of mind
sky: because if we put our trust in anything besides the merits of Jesus, we have no peace, no assurance whatsoever
Jezel: i agree sky
sky: "All His merits and righteousness (love) are offered to fallen man, presented to him as a gift." 7 B.C.913
sky: im glad u do jezz praise the Lord
sky: a gift to be claimed by faith
sky: every day
sky: its like we have a bank account in which are all the merits of Jesus
Jezel: i agree with you sky
Jezel: how about you Rob?
Jezel: at first i don't really understand about Christ's Merit but when i read your booklet wow so nice
sky: after robie reads the first two books i know she will understand this better
sky: much better
sky: yes jezz
Jezel: but i keep reading, repeating and memorizing it so that it will stay in my mind and heart forever
sky: "Lord you have touched my heart, You have placed Your word before me like a torch that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." The Great Controversy, 221.
sky: yes right on jezz
Jezel: abomination?
sky: abomination: when something is an abomination in God's eyes,,, that means its a horrible thing
Jezel: ok
sky: a horrible and terrible thing to trust in creature merits rather than in the divine merits of Jesus
Jezel: sky
sky: yes
Jezel: its nice to study
robie_gomez: Christ's merit extends to others inasmuch as they are His members
robie_gomez: late reply
sky: the merits of Jesus extend to all, no matter who they are
Jezel: thanks alot sky
sky: my pleasure

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Replies to This Discussion

Hi Sky,
Nice conversation. First may I ask, what is so bad about being a member of wcc? what pillars or laws did we violate by becoming a member. I thought, wcc is just some sort of registry, like census. Secondly, you mentioned there was a FIRST CALL before crucifixion and SECOND CALL after. May I know exactly when and where and how it happened? I just learned that they rejected it but as to how, when and why... I have no idea. 3rdly, What happened in 1888? and which will come first, the latter rain or close of probation?
Kindly, enlightened me even briefly, on the matter.
Many Thanks,
Reya
Thanks Reya. What is wrong with being a member of the WCC? First of all it is important to remember that there was a time when the SDA church could not be a member of the WCC. Because of some of the pillars of our faith we were categorized as an anti-christian cult. Especially our doctrine of the atonement and of the nature of Christ in His humanity. All these churches which compose the WCC teach that the atonement was finished at the cross and that Jesus had sinless flesh. Adventism taught that the condition for the atonement was fulfilled at the cross but the atonement itself did not begin until Jesus ascended up on High after His resurrection. There in the Holy Place He began the atonement by pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father in our behalf. Then on the 22nd of October 1844, at the end of the 2,300 day prophecy of Dan.8:14, He passed from the Holy to the Most Holy place to begin the final phase of the atonement coinciding with the investigative judgment of the dead which is to be followed by the inv judment of the living when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed at the end of the loud cry at the time of the great final test.

The reason why the SDA church is now recognized as a member of the WCC is because between 1955 and 1957 the leaders of the church held 18 meetings with representatives of these churches in an effort to bring a concensus between us and them. Our leaders assured them that we too believe that the atonement was finished at the cross and that Jesus lived a sinless life, not in sinful flesh, but in the flesh, the same flesh that Adam and Eve had before the fall. By repudiating these two fundamentals of our faith, the church entered into what Mrs. White foresaw as the "omega" of apostasy. See 1 S.M.204,205. Mrs. White was shown that we had more to fear from the friendship of these churches than from their enmity! Since these compromises and repudiations were made there has been more and more of a congenial fellowship between us and the WCC. We are no longer a separate and peculiar people. These churches have taken sides with the first great apostate. See 1 S.M.222, bottom of the page.

Rev.18:2 is a call to come out of these churches which will then be Babylon the Great. This call is still future.

As to the first call and the second call of the parable of Matt.22, as it is shown in the conversation, the first call came in 1888 and it was rejected just as the parable predicted it would be. See 1 S.M.234,235. The second call is the next event in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll. That call will also be rejected as predicted in the parable, except that this time there will be a great persecution. The bearers of the message will be character assassinated and they will be forced to go out to the world and the message will swell into the loud cry coinciding with the enactment of the Sunday Law and then the end will come. Between the fist call and the second call, there is a crucifixion. For the Jews it was the crucifixion of Christ. For us it was the crucifixion of the messages that God had entrusted to us as a people in 1957. Since then we have been living in the time of "added probation" when it is still time for us to accept the call to repentance and the offer of forgiveness for crucifying Christ in the rejection of the light that He had entrusted to us as a people. It is a message to lay hold upon the righteousness of Christ obtained through faith in His all-sufficient merits. Prophecy will be fulfilled. We need to understand the times we are living in but many have not a clue anymore than the Jews understood their day of opportunity.

The latter rain comes first and it is the rejection of the latter rain message by the professed people of God which will force the bearers of the message to go to the world with their message. That message will swell into a loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, probation will close and the destiny of all will be forever fixed.

Hope this helped u somewhat.

God bless,

sky
Are you suggesting that the Adventist church currently does not believe that "the condition for the atonement was fulfilled at the cross but the atonement itself did not begin until Jesus ascended up on High after His resurrection." It is my understanding that is what we teach. I don't know that we changed our belief on the nature of Christ either.

I bring this up because you seem to be promoting a conspiracy theory that involves "secret" meetings where the Adventist church changed their beliefs to become members of the World Council of Churches. I don't see any evidence that what we currently teach is different than before any meetings with the WCC. You suggest that the meetings between Adventists and the WCC were "an effort to bring a concensus between us and them". I don't believe, or see any evidence that we changed our beliefs. Can you show us from the 28 fundamentals how we changed? We did meet with the WCC to discuss our beliefs. But that wasn't so we could appease them and join their club. We were seeking to NOT be labeled a cult. And we were showing them that we were deriving all our beliefs from the Bible. They saw that, and we are no longer labeled a cult by the WCC.

So I don't see a big problem here. If our published and taught fundamental beliefs did not change, how can we say that change happened? Simply because "there was a time when the SDA church could not be a member of the WCC" does not make it terrible now. Women didn't used to wear pants either. Times change. Organizations change. Through this, we don't have evidence that the Adventist Church changed their fundamental beliefs.

God bless our study.
Dear brother Vincenzo, if you haven't read LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES by M.L. Andreason, it would be a good time to do so. The church never bragged about having compromised some of the fundamentals of our faith. These meetings were secret meetings just as Jesus was tried in secret in the middle of the nite. The fact of the matter is that these meetings took place and even the representatives of these churches, Barnhouse and Martin, published in their evangelical magazines reports of those meetings. In these articles they stated that the adventist leaders had changed their position on the atonement and the nature of Christ. The adventist leaders did not give a report of these meetings. Our people began to be informed by reading articles from Eternity magazine after the fact.

sky

Mrs. White made clear predictions that these meetings would take place and that our pillars would be compromised, especially the central pillar which is the atonement. Are u familiar with these predictions? I would think not because if u were you would hold a different opinion on the subject.
Vincenzo,

Ellen White taught that Christ made a complete and full sacrifice at the cross, never to be repeated, but that the atonement itself is being made now in the heavenly sanctuary. GC 430: par. 2; 480; 489.

She said that we're living now in the time of the antitypical day of atonement, and that the day of atonement was not fulfilled at the cross but is being fulfilled now, between 1844 and the close of human probation which occurs just prior to the Second Coming. Mrs. White wrote, "The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross." GC 289.

When was the last time you heard our pastors teaching this? When was the last time you read this teaching in our major publications?

And finally when was the last time you read in our publications that Christ came to this earth and lived and died in the same flesh that you and I and every other human being born in this world has? Yet that is what Ellen White taught, and it is what our church taught until about 1957.
I agree completely with the interpretation that Ellen White makes clear. My point is that I think that our official beliefs still reflect that. I don't think we have left that belief behind.

Now, you asked how often I hear my pastors teaching this... almost never. But I don't hear them teaching the opposite either. Our pastors don't teach our fundamentals very often from the pulpit (or at any other time for that matter except to brand new believers). This is a big problem.

But I don't see that problem as being indicative that our fundamental beliefs have changed. That is why I am asking for evidence that our official belief actually has changed.
Vincenzo, I am sure you are familiar with the book Bible Readings for the Home. This book is now a book of a "new order" as Mrs. White predicted there would be after the compromises would be made. At first the book stated that "Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh." The Evangelicals thought that this satement was an "offending" statement, so they ask the adventist leaders at the time to expounge it from our book. Our leaders complied and they asked brother Rebok who was then in charge of the printing work to take that statement out of the book. Once the change was made, it read thus: "Jesus lived a sinless life in the flesh." The Evangelicals were very pleased. Regarding the atonement, the Evangelicals inquired about what Mrs. White meant by an "on-going atonement" in the sanctuary above. The leaders were quick to re-assure them that all Mrs. White meant was that Jesus was applying the benefits of the atonement which was finished at the cross and the Evangelicals were satisfied with that explanation. But these compromises were made in secret meetings with them and our people had no clue of what was going on.

Now if the world comes knocking on our door to investigate us as to determine once and for all whether we are Christians or not, is this not a God-given opportunity for us to witness to the truth? Were not these representatives of the other churches entitled to the truth? Instead our leaders betrayed sacred trusts. But this is registered in the books of Heaven as Treason. Our leaders crucified the messages that had made us a peculiar people just as the Jews crucified Christ to put Him out of the way.

In the book Selected Messages, Vol.1,204,205 Mrs. White speaks of this crucifixion of these pillars of our faith as the "omega" of apostasy. She said that it would be of a "most startling nature" and that "our religion would be changed." After the meetings with the Evangelicals, our leaders at the G.C. put out a book and in that book they declared: "We are one with our fellow Christians of denominational groups in the great fundamentals of the faith once delivered to the saints." Questions on Doctrine, p.32. This is the book that has caused so much division in the church, the book that was sent to all the evangelical ministers after the compromises were made.

Then a few years later, two statements, of a most startling nature, appeared in our periodicals:

"Today, the old largely negative approach--emphasing the things wherein we differ from all religious groups--is past, definitely past. And it is as it should be." Ministry Magazine, March 1966, p.10.

"The Adventist Church today is better prepared to make COMMON CAUSE with these other Evangelicals than at any previous time in its history." Ministry Magazine, June 1966, pp,19,20.

Now let us read from The Great Controversy:

"The wide diversity of belief in the Protestant churches is regarded by many as decisive proof that no effort to secure a forced uniformity can ever be made. But there has been for years, in churches of the Protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure such a union, the discussion of subjects upon which all were not agreed--however important they might be from a Bible standpoint--must necessarily be waved." p.444.

sky

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