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Brethren,
I grieve inside me, and I am wondering why these things occur in the church.

  • Why is it we have no free Schools of Evangelism or Bible Schools? One is required to pay for everything, no free online courses!
  • Pastors preach and produce sermons, presentations on CDs and DVDs, all of them are on SALE.
  • SDA Schools are expensive benefiting very few SDAs save those kids from well to do families, why is this so?
  • Books are written in high quantities and yet a lot of them are on SALE. Spirit of Prophesy is on SALE, Bible on SALE, Sermons on SALE...


NB: The matter regarding EGW Software was settled and a free online database with Bible Commentaries can be easily accessed here

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???

Can you point out what "facts" I have stated incorrectly?

(Is this more diversionary rhetoric so you won't have to defend your real actions?)

And by the way... the post you are replying to (above) is at the end of the thread, right? Yet you still insist on saying that I'm jumping into the middle of a thread without knowing what is at the end. I don't understand...
Exceptional Natalie, you deserve a standing ovation!

Narration by Pr. David Gates from Abraham's Sacrifice video:

Extract word by word from Video

After talking to Stephen Bohr, after talking to Doug Batchelor, I am realizing something, Hope Channel will no longer broadcast in North America at least any sermons got to do with Daniel and Revelation that deals with the beast.
So Stephen Bohr said what are you going to do during the Loud Cry? Babylon is fallen, Stephen Bohr said, I will have to think about it was the answer at the General Conference.

And then 3ABN started pulling off some of those sermons too, saying we can't have that, it might be too sensitive, may be some people will get insulted.
And when I realized that 3ABN is getting in position whereby some sermons cannot be preached and Hope Channel won't preach certain things but nice things only, we have a hard message for the world saying Babylon is fallen, come out of her my people, if you want to be politically correct don't do that but if you are willing to preach straight truth, God will honor you and bless you because that's our message.
If you going to preach God is love everybody else is preaching the same message, but if you want to preach God is coming, Jesus is coming soon, He has requirements, prerequisites for his people.

I realized that God requires another television network willing to preach straight truth and I told Stephen Bohr and Doug Batchelor we are going on the air on satellite right next to 3ABN and Hope Channel in the US, we are adding two more stations, we are adding the French station starting this month for Montreal, Quebec in Canada, they speak French and have no Adventist French station and will cover their need as well and another one called Missions TV with front line reports from all the world.

We are going to have four television stations alongside 3ABN and Hope Channel. When they heard that, Stephen Bohr said, I am moving all my programs to your TV and Doug Batchelor said I am moving all my programs to your TV.

All of a sudden I realized and asked Doug Batchelor why are you moving? Doug answered that we are paying $15,000 a month to be on 3ABN, you have to pay? Doug answered oh yes, you have to pay to be on 3ABN.
And they don't allow you to ask for money even if you do pay because they do their own fund raising for their network
.

I (David) just want you to know that on our network you will not pay anything...Doug Batchelor answered no we are willing to pay. We are not willing to accept your money, Doug answered why? Use your money to advance your ministry, God will take care of you and He will take care of us. Keep your food for your ministry and God will feed us, He has food for everybody.

And he thought what a philosophy! you know they sell their products, Amazing Facts sells their products, Stephen Bohr sells their products and they are saying David How can you do everything for free?

I said It's more fun, less problems, no taxes to pay, not only that, I get more money than you do. Why? because the bible says He that gives, shall receive and the more you sell you get a little bit, you get a percentage but if you give it away, you get all back again.

So they are learning and I have trained Doug Batchelor and Stephen Bohr to think differently. Give and It shall be given unto you, Sell and it shall be given unto you a little bit, we are talking about ministry, Jesus never sold sermons and never healed for pay we are not talking about regular business but ministry.
~ ~ END ~ ~

Now all those advocating for selling, you can see how flawed an idea it is...These things are supposed to be for free.

Regards

Joseph
I prefer Hope Channel myself.
Yes that's good, but the point is:
Give and It shall be given unto you, Sell and it shall be given unto you a little bit, we are talking about ministry, Jesus never sold sermons and never healed for pay we are not talking about regular business but ministry
You don't stop do you Joseph?
I think you miss the point that it is not necessary to steal when all the information is available for free of charge.
I don't see it as "a battle of Western-Christian mentally trained moral-ethics vrs. African situational survival moral ethics".

I see it as a battle between keeping the commandments and being God's remnant people vs. willfully breaking the commandments and being lost.

Just because one comes from a particular culture of sinfulness (don't we all?) does not make the commandments not apply to that person. They are God's eternal moral laws. For everyone. Everywhere.

And as 4 Him correctly points out, all these materials are available free of charge. They just aren't in a flashy, cool, and searchable format then.

No matter how much the original poster avoids answering tough questions, his message appears to be that he believes that he cannot win souls to Christ in Sub-Saharan Africa with generators, laptops, video projectors, and cool multimedia programs. Some or all of which might be stolen. (Why stop with stealing only a portion of the "needed" tools?)
Bro. Vicenzo,

Could you please take your time to read the bullet points which are clearly stated on this discussion forum.

As a matter of fact, my love for technology in mission was brought later on. But it beats my understanding that you are on a quagmire without facts! and every time you post I feel like telling you man are you OK?

Did this post start by quoting the use of technology in subsaharan Africa?

Isn't this post about why the word of God and services are On Sale? Like I said stop just typing stuff when you have no facts, please if you are learned enough read the whole post...

If you can't read, we are discussing why present day so called Adventists people like you Vicenzo have a flawed mentality thinking that the word of God should be sold.
I posted an example of David Gates' ministry and they are not selling anything.

I am a trained Mechanical and Aeronautical Engineer, for your own information if you know how much Aviation fuel costs it's expensive. Airplanes are expensive to maintain, service and the cost price is rocket high, how comes Pr. Gates the Lord provided him with airplanes now more than 8, he has set up TV Stations more than a dozen and he doesn't charge? Don't you think he challenged Amazing Facts, 3ABN, EGW Estate?

Now the matter regarding EGW software was settled, that's the very reason I asked you did you read the whole post? Did you read what I posted after the "Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus" video? Because if you did, you would have understood what Me, Travis, 4Him, Clark and JohnB summarized the whole issue regarding EGW software.

Man I feel sad a person like you that old, can be challenged to always get facts right.
It just makes my brain spin in orbital space.
Thank you for being patient with me Joseph. You are obviously much more intelligent than I am. As you point out, I am often confused.

So please continue with your patience with me until I understand. These are the questions I don't understand yet that you can clear up (and please don't send me to something you already posted... I've read all that stuff and I still don't understand as you have pointed out.)

1. Did you steal to further God's work?

2. Can you show me where the Bible and/or Spirit of Prophecy condemns charging money for our goods / services of value? (I know you must have the quotes or you wouldn't have questioned if people that do those bad things are Adventist.)

Please don't write any more long stories as they seem to confuse me. Just "Yes" or "No" for the first one and a list of quotes for the second one.

Thanks Joseph!
Praise be to God,

Allow me If you will, to answer your questions one by one: I am afraid when it comes to Biblical issues, I don't give affirmatives and leave them hanging so I will have to write a brief account of my answers.

I haven't stolen to advance the Lord's work. The copy of EGW Legacy of Light with bible commentaries which now costs $164 was given to me 4 years ago by an angel from the Lord through a lady who had the original after searching for ages She at once told me, to make a copy and It's the only copy I have ever been with. By then that software costs were $200 or more if I haven't forgotten.

All along ever since I got this copy, I have been studying the Lord's word and I shared it with the brethren. I was freely given, I freely gave out what I had!
My sharing the Lord's work I thought wasn't a problem but until when I found out that God's people are fighting in copyright laws EGW Estate inclusive by saying, you are not supposed to share the software because we need to get back the money we invested into the development of the material.

After having read that, I felt sad indeed because the whole thing of selling was to get back money, think of that!
Now it's all about the Lord's money and yet this is the message which is supposed to be freely given? I saw the spirit of Hollywood into play, produce something and not supposed to distribute it, yet as a matter of fact, the heathens have a lot of free material and God's people who call themselves remnants can't offer that good stuff for free.

Then some discussants gave examples of "some" but not all EGW books which are freely available online wither on audio or printed, but I quoted to them as far as I know Bible Commentaries are not available, compilations are not available.

I argued my point and gave examples of e-sword, Bible gateway folks who have powerful software in the order of EGW legacy of Light, but they are freely available for everyone to download for free, but EGW Estate is saying pay $164 for the thing and DO NOT distribute. I saw a flawed mentality. If Bible Gateway the most widely used online bible with powerful search characteristics like those in EGW CD-ROM, how comes they have it for free, you can download and use it, as a matter of fact there are other software from other churches which even have Greek, Hebrew and Bible Commentaries and you can freely download them!

Summarizing the first question, to me and the Lord is my witness, I didn't steal the software although according to their flawed mentality, the lady who gave me a copy infringed their agreement of not making a copy and share it.

I noted it that I haven't stolen to advance the Lord's work neither will I ever do that, how can you go for a mission trip or evangelistic meetings and start quoting Spirit of Prophesy, don't you think that's logic? I didn't understand why you attacked me for using computer technology in mission, yet I said that EGW Software was for the brethren and for reaching out to the lost ship, I will apply what the Lord has blessed me with.
The Lord blessed me with computer skills to advance His work, not to sit on them although I am not in IT field, but the Lord has taught me a lot in IT.

Regarding the second question please we are not speaking about personal goods/services of value!
We are speaking about the Lord's work, that which is from above. So if you have a business you are free to charge whatever you want provided you don't overcharge more than it's worth, but when it comes to the Lord's work, it's not business but ministry, it's from above and should be made freely available through sacrifice, self denial and return of tithes and offerings.

If someone can run TV Stations, Schools, Aviation programs for free that's a bill totaling to more than $1m a month! How much more can the Lord provide for the $500,000 invested into developing EGW Software? How much more can the Lord provide for primary, secondary and theological schools?

My argument has been there's no justification for selling. If the Lord who gives Pr. Gates millions and millions of dollars to run TV stations, Schools, Aviation programs a month free of charge is the same God who provides for Audio Verse, Final Generation Media and is still the same God who will provide for 3ABN, Hope Channel, Amazing Facts etc.if they stop selling and charging for their products.

Matthew 10:8 (KJV)
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Expounding more on this verse:
Counsels on Stewardship, p.287,288
The only plan which the gospel has marked out for sustaining the work of God is one that leaves the support of His cause to the honor of men. With an eye single to the glory of God, men are to give to God the proportion which He has required. Viewing the cross of Calvary, looking upon the world's Redeemer, who for our sake became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich, we shall feel that we are not to lay up for ourselves treasures on the earth, but to lay up treasures in the bank of heaven, which will never suspend payment nor fail. The Lord has given Jesus to our world, and the question is, What can we give back to God in gifts and offerings to show our appreciation of His love? "Freely ye have received, freely give."

How much more eager will every faithful steward be to enlarge the proportion of gifts to be placed in the Lord's treasure house, than to decrease his offering one jot or tittle. Whom is he serving? For whom is he preparing an offering?--For the One upon whom he is dependent for every good thing which he enjoys. Then let not one of us who is receiving the grace of Christ, give occasion for the angels to be ashamed of us, and for Jesus to be ashamed to call us brethren.

Shall ingratitude be cultivated, and made manifest by our niggardly practices in giving to the cause of God?--No, no! Let us surrender ourselves a living sacrifice, and give our all to Jesus. It is His; we are His purchased possession. Those who are recipients of His grace, who contemplate the cross of Calvary, will not question concerning the proportion to be given, but will feel that the richest offering is all too meager, all disproportionate to the great gift of the only-begotten Son of the infinite God. Through self-denial, the poorest will find ways of obtaining some thing to give back to God.

Fundamentals of Christian Education, p.456
"As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me." How many have experienced this? How many realize the true meaning of these words? Will we individually seek to understand the word of God, and practice it? This word, believed, is to every truly converted soul, the free gift of grace. It cannot be bought with money. We should continually realize that we do not deserve grace because of our merit, for all that we have is God's gift. He says to us, "Freely ye have received, freely give."

Patriarchs and Prophets, p.529
Said the Saviour to His disciples as He sent them forth, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:8. As our blessings and privileges are increased--above all, as we have before us the unparalleled sacrifice of the glorious Son of God--should not our gratitude find expression in more abundant gifts to extend to others the message of salvation? The work of the gospel, as it widens, requires greater provision to sustain it than was called for anciently; and this makes the law of tithes and offerings of even more urgent necessity now than under the Hebrew economy. If His people were liberally to sustain His cause by their voluntary gifts, instead of resorting to unchristian and unhallowed methods to fill the treasury, God would be honored, and many more souls would be won to Christ.

Testimonies for the Church Vol. 3, p.408

When Jesus was about to ascend on high, He pointed to the harvest fields and said to His followers: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel." "Freely ye have received, freely give." Shall we deny self that the wasting harvest may be gathered?
God calls for talents of influence and of means. Shall we refuse to obey? Our heavenly Father bestows gifts and solicits a portion back, that He may test us whether we are worthy to have the gift of everlasting life.

Testimonies for the Church Vol. 5, p.731, 732

Our Lord designed that His church should reflect to the world the fullness and sufficiency that we find in Him. We are constantly receiving of God's bounty, and by imparting of the same we are to represent to the world the love and beneficence of Christ. While all heaven is astir, dispatching messengers to every part of the earth to carry forward the work of redemption, the church of the living God are also to be co-laborers with Christ. We are members of His mystical body. He is the head, controlling all the members of the body. Jesus Himself, in His infinite mercy, is working on human hearts, effecting spiritual transformations so amazing that angels look on with astonishment and joy. The same unselfish love that characterizes the Master is seen in the character and life of His true followers. Christ expects that men will become partakers of His divine nature while in this world, thus not only reflecting His glory to the praise of God, but illumining the darkness of the world with the radiance of heaven. Thus will be fulfilled the words of Christ: "Ye are the light of the world."

"We are laborers together with God," "stewards of the manifold grace of God." The knowledge of God's grace, the truths of His word, and temporal gifts as well,--time and means, talents and influence,--are all a trust from God to be employed to His glory and the salvation of men. Nothing can be more offensive to God, who is constantly bestowing His gifts upon man, than to see him selfishly grasping these gifts and making no returns to the Giver. Jesus is today in heaven preparing mansions for those who love Him; yes, more than mansions, a kingdom which is to be ours. But all who shall inherit these blessings must be partakers of the self-denial and self-sacrifice of Christ for the good of others.

Testimonies for the church vol. 9, p.49
Self-sacrifice is the keynote of the teachings of Christ. Often it is presented and enjoined in language that seems authoritative, because God sees that there is no other way to save man than to cut away from his life the selfishness which, if retained, would degrade the whole being.

Christ became poor that we might be partakers of the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." 2 Corinthians 4:17. We are to practice the same self-sacrifice that led Him to give Himself up to the death of the cross, to make it possible for human beings to have eternal life. In all our expenditure of means we are to strive to fulfill the purpose of Him who is the alpha and omega of all Christian effort.

We are to place in the Lord's treasury all the means that we can spare. For this means, needy, unworked fields are calling. From many lands is sounding the cry, "Come over, . . . and help us." Our church members should feel a deep interest in home and foreign missions. Great blessings will come to them as they make self-sacrificing efforts to plant the standard of truth in new territory. The money invested in this work will bring rich returns. New converts, rejoicing in the light received from the word, will in their turn give of their means to carry the light of truth to others.

I Tim 6:10 KJV
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Hebrews 13:5 (KJV)
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2 Timothy 3:2 (KJV)
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

1 Peter 5:2 (NIV)
Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

Evangelism p.90
Some laborers overwork and do without things they ought to have, because there is not enough money in the treasury to sustain the number of workers that ought to be in the field. There would be more money if all would work in accordance with Christ's injunction: "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."--Letter 49. 1902.

Acts of Apostles p.338
As God's work extends, calls for help will come more and more frequently. That these calls may be answered, Christians should heed the command, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in Mine house." Malachi 3:10. If professing Christians would faithfully bring to God their tithes and offerings, His treasury would be full. There would then be no occasion to resort to fairs, lotteries, or parties of pleasure to secure funds for the support of the gospel.

Testimonies for the Church Vol. 1, p.480
True, noble, disinterested benevolence is too rarely found among the wealthy. In their ambition for wealth they overlook the claims of humanity. They cannot see and feel the cramped, disagreeable position of their brethren in poverty, who perhaps have labored as hard as themselves. Like Cain they say: "Am I my brother's keeper?" "I have worked hard for what I have; I must hold on to it." Instead of praying, "Help me to feel my brother's woe," their constant study is to forget that he has any woes, any claims upon their sympathy or liberalities.

Evangelism p.63
Follow God's Opening Providence.--If we would follow the opening providence of God, we should be quick to discern every opening, and make the most of every advantage within our reach. . . . There is a fearfulness to venture out and run risks in this great work, fearing that the expenditure of means would not bring returns. What if means are used and yet we cannot see that souls have been saved by it? What if there is a dead loss of a portion of our means? Better work and keep at work than to do nothing. You know not which shall prosper--this or that.

Men will invest in patent rights and meet with heavy losses, and it is taken as a matter of course.
But in the work and cause of God, men are afraid to venture. Money seems to them to be a dead loss that does not bring immediate returns when invested in the work of saving souls. The very means that is now so sparingly invested in the cause of God, and that is selfishly retained, will in a little while be cast with all idols to the moles and to the bats. Money will soon depreciate in value very suddenly when the reality of eternal scenes opens to the senses of man.

I summarize by saying, there's no justification for charging. It's totally a different case for Colpeteur ministry. But producing this material and charge people yet many are hungering for it, the whole point of the gospel is lost.

The Lord will surely provide for schools, aviation schools, TV Stations etc.

Imagine a christian TV like 3ABN charging $15,000 from a brother ministry? Can't you see it for yourself something is wrong?

Regards

Joseph
Thank you for your patience Joseph,
I'm still a little unclear on some things. Again please answer these point by point so I am not confused.

I asked, "1. Did you steal to further God's work?" You said you did not. Is possession and use of stolen property the same as stealing? You have said else where on this forum that you have distributed more copies of these CD-ROM's. You offered them to other members here for free. Have you given a copy to anyone else?

My second question asked for quotes showing that charging money for goods/services was wrong according to scripture and the SOP. You gave many very good quotes condemning greed, covetousness, the love of money, etc. We both agree that these are all bad. We also agree that freely we have received, freely we should give. All these quotes tell us about potential evil habits. But none of them tell us to give everything away for free. Ellen White didn't do that. I can't find anywhere that she tells us to do that either.

Can you give any quotes that tell us to give everything away for free?

Does charging for a product / service make me greedy / love money / covetous?

Thanks again for your patience. God bless!

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