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Today, I would like to re-visit a letter brother A.T. Jones

wrote to brother A.G. Daniells in 1906.  I believe it

contains more than valuable information as to what was

really going on in those days. So we need to put aside

our prejudices (if there are any) and read the following

letter with a receptive mind so that if brother Jones was

speaking the truth, nothing will stand in the way of our

accepting it. May the Spirit of the Lord be with you as

you follow through to the end of this letter. Thank you

for your attention. God bless!

 

sky

 

 

Battle Creek, Mich., Jan. 26, 1906

A.G. Daniells,
Takoma Park Station, Washington, D.C.

Dear Brother:--Your letter of the 17th in answer to mine of the 6th goes so far afield from anything expected or, as I think, called for by my letter, that I am disposed to follow you there, and do all that I can to take away all ground for your having any perplexity about me or my course. Indeed, if you had remembered things that at the beginning I said to you, you need not to have been perplexed at all concerning me, if you expected me to be consistent at all.

First as to the General Conference matters, and my relations to the Committee. Before the General Conference of 1897, at College View, the conditions were such that in that Conference things came to a deadlock. By the Committee and presidents in council, I, in my absence was appointed to read the Testimonies to find the way out. God did lead us out gloriously. A change was made: Brother Irwin being elected president. And I was made a member of the Committee.

It was not very long, however, before the same influences that had produced the situation at College View, were again at work. I saw it plainly enough to satisfy me, and by the time of the General Conference of 1899, at South Lancaster, things were in a bad shape again in some respects--though not near so far along as at College View. In the South Lancaster Conference one day, all unexpectedly, and unintentionally on the part of anybody in the Conference, the power of God came in in a special manner, bringing the whole Conference to its knees at once, and working a great deliverance again.  

Brother Irwin stated openly in the Conference that he had "been a coward." The whole matter can be read in the Bulletin of that Conference for that day. On another day in that Conference, the power of God came in specially and carried the deliverance further.

By action of that Conference, I was continued on the Committee. It was not long before the same old influences were at work; and in about a year they had got such a hold again, that, rather than be compromised, I resigned from the Committee.

Then came the General Conference of 1901, in Battle Creek. According to the arrangements I was to report the proceedings of the Conference: and according to the arrangements, Brother Prescott and Brother Waggoner were not expecting, and evidently were not expected, to have even that much to do. But before the Conference actually assembled in session there occurred that meeting in the Library Room of the College Building, in which Sister White spoke on General Conference matters and organization, declaring that there must be "an entire new organization, and to have a Committee that shall take in not merely half a dozen that is to be a ruling and controlling power, but it is to have representatives of those that are placed in responsibility in our educational interests, in our sanitariums, etc., that there should be a renovation without any delay. To have this Conference pass on and close up as the Conferences have done with the same manipulating, with the very same tone, and the same order--God forbid! God forbid, brethren... And until this shall come we might just as well close up the Conference today as any other day. . . This thing has been continued and renewed for the last fifteen years or more, (1901 minus 15 years takes us back to 1886), and God calls for a change."

 

To be continued

 

 

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Clark, 

 

You missed the point.  There was no comparison between Ellen White and Saul, the comparison is between the church (or its leaders) and Saul.  If they were in an open violation of God's instructions as would appear to be the case from the information Sky has provided here, they would not be open to counsel and God would not provide it, whether by dreams, umim and thumim or prophet.  

 

Samuel apparently was not the only prophet in Israel since Saul fell in with other prophets right after his anointed and surprised everyone who knew him because of his prophesying.  Samuel was only the most prominent.  But scripture tells us that after Samuel corrected Saul's disobedience by beheading Agag as God had commanded Saul to do, Samuel never talked to Saul again during his life.  At this point God never talked to him again by the prophets.  We are not told when God quit talking to him by the dreams or by the umim and thumim.  It was apparently right after this that God sent the even spirit to torment him there would apparently have been some communications by that means.

 

But if the leadership of the church is in open rebellion against God the prophet is not to speak to them.  Ezekiel 14 discusses how a prophet is to handle the situation when someone comes to him seeking confirmation of his preconceived ideas, which God called idols of the heart.  The prophet is to say nothing.  If the 1901 restructuring was commanded by God, and if the 1903 action reversed the restructuring, going back to what things were before in spite of God's command, on that issue the only thing Daniels would have wanted to hear was that he did what was right.  

 

If I read your information correctly Daniels served another 22 years after this and EGW lived another 12 years after this.  If she had seen that Daniels was not open to correction, and since there were no other attempts to change his leadership before her death it would have been a sin for her to say anything on the matter at all.  9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him.  

 

So the silence of the prophet on the matter is really no big surprise, and does not clearly mean that Daniels was right in what was done.  It also does not necessarily mean he was wrong.  Having no more history of the matter than I have seen in these posts I cannot really judge it any further.  But beyond a certain point, God will not waste words of reproof on those who are unwilling to be corrected.

My study has lead me to be quite confident in the fact that Ellen G. White did not bite her tongue on known issues.  Since she did not continue with any warnings or instructions for further change, this leaves me quite confident that the issue was resolved to God's liking.  EGW said positive things about the church after this, so it's not like she was withholding comment.

 

As far as "it would have been a sin for her to say anything on the matter at all", I simply cannot fathom making that judgment call or drawing that conclusion.  I surely don't see it that way.  I remain convinced that if the problem remained after the large influx of new leadership, Ellen White would have spoken about it.

Hello Sky,
I too would like to know your "nutshell" synopsis of this letter. What are you trying to illustrate to us?

Long after this date, Ellen White was not anti-GC / church structure as you are. I'm curious, if she, as a messenger of God, wasn't this vehement, why are you?

Blessings and prayers,
Clark

_______________________________________

 

Again, Clark, this is not about me. It has nothing to do with me or

my feelings. It is not even about Mrs. White but about what the

Lord said about it. Is the Lord being "vehement" through His

servant when He says,

 

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as

though position has made men gods,  makes

me afraid, and ought to cause fear. This lording it

over God's heritage will create such a disgust of

man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination

will result." T.M.361 (1895)

 

"To conference presidents, and men in responsible

places, I bear this message: Break the bands and

fetters that have been placed upon God's people.

To you the word is spoken: 'Break every yoke.'

Unless you cease to make man amenable to man,

unless you become humble in heart, and yourselves

learn the way of the Lord as little children, the Lord will

divorce you from His work." T.M.480,481 (1909)

 

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in

putting God aside and acepting the devisings of men. If

you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become

extinct. God is in every place beholding the conduct of

the people who profess to represent the principles of

His word. He asks that a change be made." T.M.481 (1909)

 

In 1901 the Lord asked that a change be made.

It was assented to but not for long. Two years

later at the 1903 General Conference the

reformatory steps adopted in 1901 were

reversed and God was put aside and the

devisings of men accepted again.

 

And it has been the same ever since.

 

Today God is still asking that a change

be made.

 

Is that being "vehement"?

 

sky

 

*devisings of men:  men's constitutions with their rules and regulations,

by-laws, policy book, resolutions, voting, delegations, church manual,

creeds, etc etc 

 

The 1901 Constitution which was after God's order eliminated

the presidency. If we want to know how the Lord is going to finish

the work in these last days, we only have to read the book of Acts.

The Primitive Church had no president because it was organized

after God's order. Christ was the invisible Head of the church.

Every member was organized from the Head and therefore actuated

by the Head. The soul that is yielded to Christ is organized from the Head

just as the members of our bodies are organized from the head and they

obey the head.   When God has a people who are organized from the Head,

He will "finish the work in a manner very much out of the common order of

things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

 

God through Mrs. White continued to give instructions to us after 1903

in spite of the fact that we had put Him aside and accepted the devisings

of men in the hope that soon or later we would return to Him and accept

His methods. He has been waiting all these years. How much longer will 

He have to wait? "He asks that a change be made."   

 

*I had to re-post this to correct a typo which

had to do with the year the statement from

T.M.481 was made. 1909 instead of 1901.

John, you know I am not twisting anything and

I am not advancing new theories.

 

sky  :)

 

 

like the pope?  :)

 

May be you have forgotten how the Lord

through Mrs. White told us that we were

following in the track of Rome, that we

were lessening the distance between us

and Rome.

 

sky

Sky,

Please read the first chapter of Acts of the Apostles entitled "God's Purpose for His Church".  AA was published in 1911.  Years after this bickering between Jones and Daniels that you quote.  It is not only a history of the early church, it is also a commentary on the church in general:  past, present, and future.  In it EGW comments much good about the church.  The first paragraph reads,

"The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency. The members of the church, those whom He has called out of darkness into His marvelous light, are to show forth His glory. The church is the repository of the riches of the grace of Christ; and through the church will eventually be made manifest, even to "the principalities and powers in heavenly places,"a the final and full display of the love of God. Ephesians 3:10."

She also says,

"Enfeebled and defective as it may appear, the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard. It is the theater of His grace, in which He delights to reveal His power to transform hearts." -AA 12

What she doesn't say in this chapter is how we need to go back to a primitive structure with no leadership.  If that was her belief or if God wanted that, I'm pretty sure it would receive some commentary.

 

This chapter from the pen of inspiration is completely at odds with your implied goal of tearing down the structure of the Adventist church.

"Enfeebled and defective as it may appear, the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard. It is the theater of His grace, in which He delights to reveal His power to transform hearts." -AA 12

 

From the same book you just quoted from, we read these words: "The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world... From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has His watchmen, who have borne a faithful testimony to the generations in which they lived." A.A.11. Then from the book The Desire of Ages, "The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." D.A.324.

 

What do you get, Clark, from comparing these statements?

 

sky

 

I don't see any conflict when comparing those statements.  Of course God's authority is above all.  Human are always to be lead by God.  Especially those is positions of leadership in our church.  These quotes do not support the tearing down of our church structure as you suggest.

 

Structure is required in any large organization.  Organizations without structure do not survive.  God told Moses to create structure to effectively lead the Israelites.  God Himself guided the formation of structure in the early church just as I believe He has lead in the formation of the current structure.

 

Please tell us how the current church structure is in any way going against God's will.

Sky my brother,

My heart aches for you.  And yes, this is about you.  You have made it that way.  You are so hung up on this issue that you can scarcely talk about anything else (except perhaps for using the 'correct' phrase to describe righteousness by faith).  You have said that you don't even attend a church.  Dropping out and separating yourself from God's remnant church because you cannot agree on every issue is tragic.  None of us agree completely but we stay on the ship.  It's the only one!  All else is folly.  Focusing on things that happened 100+ years ago accomplishes little unless those mistakes are being repeated now.  I don't see that they are.  If you have examples of where our GC or church leadership is acting in the way your quotes describe, please tell us about it.  Otherwise, you are just exposing the chip you have on your shoulder against the GC and church leadership.  Yes, our leadership is made up of sinful humans.  They make mistakes.  I know I do.  But I do not see anything similar to what you are describing.

 

This preoccupation with the structure of the church and it's flaws saves NO ONE from sin.  In fact, it quite possibly drives sincere souls away away from our church.  You are majoring in minors.  This is NOT anything that has to do with anyone's salvation.  That is where our efforts should be concentrated.

 

Join us, PLEASE!  Blessings and Prayers,

Clark

Clark, my heart aches with the heart of Christ for

us to return to primitive faith and godliness that we

may be joined to the Head and be actuated by the
Head so that the work may be finished and cut short

in righteousness.

 

sky  :)

Thanks Rob for your efforts to come to a clearer understanding of this issue but there is need for further research. You quoted the following:

 

"The president of the General Conference [SEE APPENDIX.] should have the privilege of deciding who shall stand by his side as counselors. Those who will keep the way of the Lord, who will preserve clear, sharp discernment by cultivating home religion, are safe counselors. Of such a one. the Searcher of hearts saith, "I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment." Counselors of the character that God chose for Moses are needed by the president of the General Conference. It was his privilege at least to express his preference as to the men who should be his counselors. It was his privilege to discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not. But a strange blindness was upon him. There has been a leavening influence upon human minds, and it has been most painful. For years God has been dishonored. . . .  {TM 342.2}

 

The president of the GC is a type of Moses, and just as Moses had 70 elders, we should have appointed apostles to show us examples of humility and meekness.

 

Rob

____________________________________________

 

In the wilderness, Moses prayed to God, saying, "Why did You afflict Your servant? and why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all this people upon me? Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat. I am not able to bear all this people alone, becausee it is too heavy for me.

 

"The Lord hearkened to his prayer, and directed him to summon seventy men of the elders of Israel--men not only advanced in years, but possessing dignity, sound judgment, and experience. 'And bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation,' He said, 'that they may stand there with you. And I will come down and talk with you there; and I will take of the spirit which is upon you, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you bear it not yourself alone.'

 

In the paragraph immediately following the above we find the answer as to whether it was God's way to summon 70 men to lighten Moses' burden:

 

"The Lord permitted Moses to choose for himself the most faithful and efficient men to share the responsibility with him. Their influence would assist in holding in check the violence of the people, amd quelling insurrection; yet serious evils would eventually result from their promotion. They would never have been chosen had Moses manifested faith corresponding to the evidences he had witnessed of God's power and goodness. But he had magnified his own burdens and services, almost losing sight of the fact that he was only the instrument by which God had wrought. He was not excusable in indulging, in the slightest degree, the spirit of murmuring that was the curse of Israel. Had he relied fully  upon God, the Lord would have given him strength for every emergency." Patriarchs and Prophets, 380.

 

Later this group of 70 men came to be known as the Sanhedrin, the men who became responsible for the crucifixion of Christ!

 

If it can be said that  Moses is a type of the president of the General Conference today it is only because we have adopted the Mosaic Order to the exclusion of Christ and the Christian Order.

 

Here is a very pertinent comment by brother Jones:

 

"The truth is that the Mosaic order of organization is no more for the direction of the government of the church in New Testament times, than that Moses himself is for the direction and government of the church in New Testament times. Moses himself was for the Mosaic or Old Testament times. The Mosaic order was for the direction and government of the church in the Mosaic or Old Testament times only and not, and can not possibly have any place in the church of the Christian or New Testament times. The Christian order and the Christian order alone is for the direction and government of the church in the Christian and New Testament times.

To go back to Moses and to the Mosaic order for any such purpose as that which is set forth in that official statement as to the organization of the Seventh-day Adventists is nothing else than to abandon Christ and the Christian order wholly. To ignore Christ and the Christian Church, as the official statement does, is the direct abandonment of Christ and the Christian order for Moses and the Mosaic order.

 

In plain fact it is not only confessed, but it is officially published that the professed "organization" of Seventh-day Adventists is that of the Mosaic order. In the official statement and publication of this fact the Mosaic order is fully outlined as such, in eight-numbered points. Then, upon that outline of the exclusively Mosaic order, that official statement says:

"The general plan of the organization adopted by Seventh-day Adventists is very similar to that outlined above."

Then to show this very similar character, there is drawn and set down in six-numbered points, a parallel with the outline of the Mosaic order. And then this official statement says:

"This comparison might be carried further, but what has been pointed out will prove sufficient to make it plain that there is a very close resemblance between the simple, complete, and efficient system of organization provided for the church established by Moses, and the organization worked out for the remnant church called out by the threefold message of Revelation 14:6-14." The President of the General Conference, in Review and Herald, May 16, 1907, pages 4-5.

There is, then, no possible room for question that the form of organization of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is professedly that of the Mosaic order. And this to the exclusion of the Christian order, for in the whole statement Christ is neither mentioned nor referred to, nor is there any reference at all to any New Testament Scripture--except only the single one of Revelation 14. The New Testament itself is not even mentioned, except in the insinuation of the false suggestion that the Mosaic order was "for the direction and government of the church in both the Old and New Testament times." A.T. Jones, An Appeal For Evangelical Christianity.

 

sky

My study has lead me to be quite confident in the fact that Ellen G. White did not bite her tongue on known issues.  Since she did not continue with any warnings or instructions for further change, this leaves me quite confident that the issue was resolved to God's liking.  EGW said positive things about the church after this, so it's not like she was withholding comment.

 

As far as "it would have been a sin for her to say anything on the matter at all", I simply cannot fathom making that judgment call or drawing that conclusion.  I surely don't see it that way.  I remain convinced that if the problem remained after the large influx of new leadership, Ellen White would have spoken about it.

 

 

Clark

__________________________

 

Six years after 1903, after the leading brethren had successfully reversed the reformatory steps that

had been taken in 1901, the Lord sent this testimony:

 

"I write thus fully, because I have been shown that ministers and people are tempted more and more to trust in finite man for wisdom, and to make flesh their arm. To conference presidents, and men in responsible places, I bear this message: Break the bands and fetters that have been placed upon  God's people. To you the word is spoken, 'Break every yoke.' Unless you cease the work of making man amenable to man, unless you become humble in heart, and yourselves learn the way of the Lord as little children, the Lord will divorce you from His work.... God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people; but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct. God is in every place, beholding the conduct of the people who profess to represent the principles of His word. He asks that a change be made." Testimonies to Ministers, p.481.

 

This statement was written in 1909!

 

God was asking that a change be made then, in 1909,

as He had been asking for many years!

 

As far as I know no change was made after 1909.

 

It is still the same order of things that is with us today.

 

sky

 

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