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Rob

 

Since the discussion on the other thread had gotten so far off of that thread, I am moving the comments over to this thread.  I'll copy and past the last two rounds of our discussion and we can move on from there.  OK?

 

Ray

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Gene I agree that 7 is God's number of completion, I do not agree with you very often but in this I will. 

Thanks for your reply Reasoning. I find it interesting that you should say we need to keep those Feast  Days. Because if we do that we should keep them to the letter.

Take the day of Atonement for example, The Pastor needs to sacrifice a bull for his own and his family's forgiveness of his and his family's sin. (That is if He is a Levite who was the only ones to qualify to be Priest) Then when he comes to church he needs to draw lot between two goats. He needs to kill the one and sprinkle the blood on the Mercy seat. Have you seen the Ark of the covenant lately to be able to do this? The other goat iss for Asael and should be led in to the wilderness. I guess that will be the only part of this ceremony we can do in our day. 

We need to be realistic about these things as Paul says; 

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Our High Priest is now Jesus who are standing at the heavenly sanctuary that does not require bulls and goats 

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

I hope you can see that these days it is not any need for those ceremonial feasts. Jesus have fulfilled them in himself. 

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Peace


Ian wrote: "Thanks for your reply Reasoning. I find it interesting that you should say we need to keep those Feast Days. Because if we do that we should keep them to the letter."

Ian wrote: "...The Pastor needs to sacrifice a bull for his own and his family's forgiveness of his and his family's sin. (That is if He is a Levite who was the only ones to qualify to be Priest) Then when he comes to church he needs to draw lot between two goats. He needs to kill the one and sprinkle the blood on the Mercy seat. Have you seen the Ark of the covenant lately to be able to do this? The other goat iss for Asael and should be led in to the wilderness. I guess that will be the only part of this ceremony we can do in our day. "
--------------------------







Lets look after the cross, is GOD'S people observing the Holy feast days of GOD? Lets look at Luke, Paul and converts, which were mostly gentiles.




EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390



Luke, Paul and converts enjoyed eights days of the feast (Passover) together, this is well after the cross. But the fact is, Passover is is being observed, ofcourse being observed with the NT ceremonies given by Jesus.


Brother Ian, with all due respect, this is where your and others line of reasoning falls apart, do you think Luke, Paul and his converts was observing the Passover days to the Old Testament letter? You think they was sacrificing bulls, goats, and lambs in Philippi???



Brother Ian, again with all due respect, your thinking towards the annual Holy set days of GOD is like a Sunday keeper point of view towards them and the 7th day Sabbath. Even though I see more and more Sunday keepers advocating observing the annual Holy Feast days, but yet they don't see the Sabbath Truth.


Sunday keepers say if the 7th Sabbath is still in effect and should be observed, then you would have to do it to the letter, they say we need to be sacrificing bull,goats, and lambs. Of course brother Ian we know the ceremonies that was done on the 7th day Sabbath is done away with and the Holy set day remains. We show Jesus observed the Sabbath, the disciples and early Church observed the Sabbath, we show it will be observed in the future.


Brother Ian, you have a Sunday keeper point of view towards the annual Holy Feast of GOD.. You say I need to sacrifice Bulls, goats and lambs.. I say follow the example of Jesus, Luke, Paul and the early Church. Then you'll see and understand the priestly temple ceremonies associated with the annual Holy days are done away with, but the Holy days themselves remain.




EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390



Brother Ian, there is no pressure on them to observe the whole eight days of the Passover Feast days, they are observing them of their own free will, if the annual Holy Feast days were done away with, then why are they observing them?
Their not in Jerusalem, and their not sacrificing bulls and lambs. They are just enjoying a peaceful and happy communion. Are they our examples? Yes, they are. Will you follow their example is another matter. But you can't say it's done away with when it's proof that the annual Holy set days of GOD are not done away with.



Blessings!

Reasoning thanks for your reply. I can assure you I have not kept a Sunday since I was baptized.

We keep the Sabbath for two reasons being as a memorial of creation and as a memorial of redemption. 

I am not conversed with the rules for keeping Passover for a new testament Christian and the Bible is not clear on what Paul and his friends did in keeping the passover in Philippi? What I know the OT passover was pointing to the cross. While the NT communion was pointing back to the cross. Seems to me that you want to add to what the NT prescribes? 

I hope you can explain this so a old fool like me can understand why we need to keep the passover as well, and what ever other feasts we must keep?

Peace


Ian wrote: "Reasoning thanks for your reply. I can assure you I have not kept a Sunday since I was baptized.
We keep the Sabbath for two reasons being as a memorial of creation and as a memorial of redemption. "



You missed my point, My point wasn't about you observing Sunday, the point I was making is that you have a Sunday keeper point of view towards the annual Holy days of GOD, like they have towards the Sabbath.
In a nutshell, that point of view is, if a person is going to observe the annual Holy Days of GOD, then they must sacrifice Bulls,goat and lambs. Many Sunday keepers say if we choose to observe and teach people to observe the 7th day Sabbath we must sacrifice bull,goats and lambs. You understand what I'm saying?



Ian wrote: "I am not conversed with the rules for keeping Passover for a new testament Christian and the Bible is not clear on what Paul and his friends did in keeping the passover in Philippi? "




Ok, put the rules and how to observe the Passover days to the side for a moment... Can we agree, Luke, Paul, and his converts were observing the Passover days, the whole eight days in Philippi?

My brother, that is not done away with... Our examples are observing annual Holy days that you and others are saying is done away with.



Ian wrote: "While the NT communion was pointing back to the cross. Seems to me that you want to add to what the NT prescribes? "



The NT ceremonies of eating the bread and drinking the wine, and washing of the feet replace the OT priestly temple ceremonies. Jesus added the NT ceremonies, but He didn't do away with the annual Holy Days of Passover or His other annual Holy Days.


Blessings!
Reason said: " You missed my point, My point wasn't about you observing Sunday, the point I was making is that you have a Sunday keeper point of view towards the annual Holy days of GOD, like they have towards the Sabbath.
In a nutshell, that point of view is, if a person is going to observe the annual Holy Days of GOD, then they must sacrifice Bulls,goat and lambs. Many Sunday keepers say if we choose to observe and teach people to observe the 7th day Sabbath we must sacrifice bull,goats and lambs. You understand what I'm saying?"

Are you serious? I mean really? Where are these things associated with the Ten Commandments?
Peace


Those things? You mean the Holy annual set days of GOD?

Yes, if your saying in order to observe them correctly I have to sacrifice lambs, goat and Bulls, then yes, that is a Sunday keeper point of view towards the 7th day Sabbath and the feast days.

You heard it before Jason, you tell Sunday keepers the 7th day Sabbath is still in effect, they say we must sacrifice lambs, goat and Bulls as stated in the book of numbers if we want to observe them correctly, they call the Sabbath ceremonial. They can't understand the ceremonies were done away with and the Holy day remains.
That same point of view is being used towards the annual Holy days of GOD, the laws written in the book next to the Ten Commandments.


Blessings!
Do you want us to show you where these things are associated with sacrifices? BTW these things were shadows according to Bible, SOP, common sense etc
Peace

Jason wrote: "Do you want us to show you where these things are associated with sacrifices? BTW these things were shadows according to Bible, SOP, common sense etc."


The annual Holy set days of GOD did have sacrifices associated with it, but after the death of Jesus those priestly temple sacrifices were done away with. How do I know brother Jason, well, the apostles were still observing the annual set Holy days of GOD some 20 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, they weren't sacrificing no lambs, goats and Bulls.



EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390



Are they our examples Jason? Of course they are... Clearly they are still observing the annual Holy set days of GOD. There's no pressure on Luke and Paul to observe the whole eight days of Passover, of their own free will, they choose to observe the Passover days. They say actions speaks louder than words, their actions shows the Holy Feast days aren't done away with.

I've heard it said many times by SDA pastors, they say the best way to know if something is ok to do, follow the example of Jesus. You can't go wrong, and it simplifies this issue.


By looking at the life of Christ we can see what He did, and we can follow.



EGW: "The example of Christ is authoritative for every son and daughter of Adam.He represented the law of God in His life, giving to men an example of what obedience to every precept will accomplish for human nature. He is our example, and every one who is endowed with reasoning faculties is required to follow in His footsteps; for His life is a perfect pattern to all humanity. Christ is the finished standard of the character to which every one may attain. . . ." {SD 137.3}


Brother Jason, I believe you have "reasoning faculties", Jesus observed the annual Holy days of GOD.



[Passover]-- " In the days of Christ the people had grown cold and formal in their service to God. They thought more of their own pleasure than of His goodness to them. But it was not so with Jesus. He loved to think about God. As He came to the temple, He watched the priests in their work. He bowed with the worshipers as they knelt to pray, and His voice joined in the songs of praise." {SJ 31.8}



EGW: "Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days. And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." It was to the celebration of this feast that Jesus came. RH July 7,1896


Jesus and the apostles observed the annual set days of GOD. Are their examples good enough for you brother Jason? It is for me.



Bless!
Why did you quote the Bible from the month of Ellen White? Yes the Jews continued to keep their feast and sacrifices even after the veil was torn. Brother this is common knowledge. Some Christians, who were also Jews, did join them when they could to win them to CHRIST. They were not the one Killing the animals etc.

Took this history from a website:

For the Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, animal sacrifices done in obedience to the Old Testament covenant were stopped in A.D. 70 at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the armies of Rome. Jesus warned of this in the Gospels.

For the Christian community, animal sacrifices stopped with the death and resurrection of Christ. There were some who were persecuted or pressured by the Jewish community to continue to offer sacrifices either because they rejected Jesus or felt his death was not enough. The book of Hebrews actually deals with this and shows that the Old Testament sacrificial system (the Old Covenant) was temporary until the coming of Christ who was the fulfillment of all that the sacrificial system anticipated. Paul teaches us the same thing in passages like Colossians 2:16f. It was Paul who specifically pointed to Christ as our Passover who was sacrificed for us (see 1 Corinthians 5:7). In keeping with the Lord’s Supper, instituted just before His death, Jesus also celebrated what was actually the last legitimate Passover by which He also pointed to Himself as the sacrifice for our sin.

Today, when Jews observe the Passover they cannot offer sacrifices because sacrifices are only to be offered in Jerusalem and in the temple. Prophetically, many believe that in the future during the time of Daniel’s 70th week, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will again be offered, but only because the Jews continue to reject Jesus as their Messiah.
https://bible.org/question/when-did-animal-sacrifices-stop-and-why
Peace


Jason wrote: "Why did you quote the Bible from the month of Ellen White?"



I don't understand the question, what are you asking?



Jason wrote: "Yes the Jews continued to keep their feast and sacrifices even after the veil was torn. Brother this is common knowledge. Some Christians, who were also Jews, did join them when they could to win them to CHRIST. They were not the one Killing the animals etc."




I'm talking about our examples, the apostles, Luke and Paul... They aren't in Jerusalem Jason, their in Philppi where there wasn't a temple, no pressure from other Jews to observe the annual Holy days. Just them, of their own free will, with Paul's converts observing the eight days of Passover. You telling me you believe sacrificing of Bulls, goats and lambs were taking place there?


If you don't want to follow their example then that's on you, Jesus observed them, and the apostles observed them. Even after 70AD gentile Christians honored GOD set days, despite the pressure from Rome not to do so.



A.T Jones gives a History lesson in the book Great empires of Prophecy, he said


"From Rome there came now another addition to the sunworshipping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate, in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, the fourteenth of the first month.Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this coloration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years resolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday." (Great Empires of Prophecy, 1898, p. 389 by A.T. Jones)


Do you believe this fact of history?


It said, "The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate, in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, the fourteenth of the first month."



Observing The 14th day of the first month was continued well after 70 AD Jason, by Gentles... The Bible and the facts of history says it's not only about the 7th Day Sabbath in changing times and laws, it's about the annual Holy Feast Days as well.


.AT Jones wrote: "From Rome there came now another addition to the sunworshipping apostasy."


What was the first addition? The 7th Day Sabbath!



AT Jones wrote: "Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this coloration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years resolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday."



Daniel 7:25 (Amplified Bible)

"And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time [three and one-half years].


Daniel 7:25 (New Living Translation)

"He will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.


Dan. 7:25 (New American Bible)

"He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year.



Blessings!
Reasoning the long quote from EGW is really just she quoting the Bible in Leviticus 23. She only wrote the last sentence. You quoted this but it was totally useless unless you were attempting to deceive us to believe that she gave this command. In any case this was a useless long quote which added nothing to the discussion, you didn't even comment on the quote? Why?

Moving on you keep on repeating the same lies posting quotes out of context. These quotes do not support feast keeping. The historians​ who wrote them didn't keep the feast days.

I see you love this quote about Paul keeping a feast. These quotes you , provided have been dealt with many times in this discussion therefore I will explain them later. Here is EGW:
"When the Saviour yielded up His life on Calvary, the significance of the Passover ceased, and the ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted as a memorial of the same event of which the Passover had been a type."
{PP 539.3}

This is clear that this feast was to be no more.

And another quote

Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. [DA 652]


"In instituting the sacramental service to take the place of the Passover, Christ left for His church a memorial of His great sacrifice for man. 'This do,' He said, 'in remembrance of Me.' This was the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. The one was to close forever; the other, which He had just established, was to take its place, and to continue through all time as the memorial of His death." {RH 06-22-97 par 1)[{Ev 273.3}



"In this ordinance, Christ discharged His disciples from the cares and burdens of the ancient Jewish obligations in rites and ceremonies. These no longer possessed any virtue; for type was meeting antitype in Himself, the authority and foundation of all Jewish ordinances that pointed to Him as the great and only efficacious offering for the sins of the world....
{RH, 06-14-98 para. 15}
{5BC 1139.5}

"...It was Christ's desire to leave to His disciples an ordinance that would do for them the very thing they needed, -- that would serve to disentangle them from the rites and ceremonies which they had hitherto engaged in as essential, and which the reception of the gospel made no longer of any force. To continue these rites would be an insult to Jehovah. Eating of the body, and drinking of the blood, of Christ, not merely at the sacramental service, but daily partaking of the bread of life to satisfy the soul's hunger, would be in receiving His word and doing His will."
{RH, 06-14-98 para. 16}
{5BC 1139.6}

Are you a Jew? It's an insult to God for you to return to these things.

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