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Rob

 

Since the discussion on the other thread had gotten so far off of that thread, I am moving the comments over to this thread.  I'll copy and past the last two rounds of our discussion and we can move on from there.  OK?

 

Ray

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Peace


Jason wrote: "Reasoning the long quote from EGW is really just she quoting the Bible in Leviticus 23. She only wrote the last sentence. You quoted this but it was totally useless unless you were attempting to deceive us to believe that she gave this command. "



No, of course not, the context is the annual Holy Days of GOD correct? Lev.23, concerning the Holy feast days of GOD, mainly in the quote it's talking about the Feast of Tabernacles, and the point that I was making is that Jesus celebrated the annual Holy Days, (EGW "It was to the celebration of this feast that Jesus came. "RH July 7,1896) ....

... and my bigger point is that Jesus is our example, if He did it, we should do it? He observed the 7th day Sabbath we should do the same yes? Of course it makes sense... Jesus observed the annual Holy Days of GOD, we should do the same yes? Of course, He's our example in all things.


This line of reasoning of, if Jesus did it , we should do the same, we can't go wrong, it's a good line of reasoning. That's one of the main points made when showing Sabbath Truth, the reasoning doesn't change because it's applied to annual Holy days of GOD. You understand?




Jason wrote: "I see you love this quote about Paul keeping a feast. These quotes you , provided have been dealt with many times in this discussion therefore I will explain them later."



That's the problem Jason, I've been waiting since 2013 in post for you to explain it... if the Annual Holy Feast days of GOD were done away with at the cross, and the apostles Luke and Paul taught that they were done away with, and also keeping them is denying Christ, then why are they observing them and having a good ole time with Paul's converts?


I gotta keep making this point, there's no pressure from other Jews to observe the Holy days, they had a choice without any pressure, and they choose to observe the annual Holy days of GOD. Why? Because they weren't done away with.


Bro., you telling me the Holy days are done away with at the Cross , but I see and read the apostles still observing them after the Cross, it was just before Paul's last journey in ACts of the Apostles, some 20 years after the cross. Their actions speaks volumes to me.



Jason wrote: "This is clear that this feast was to be no more.And another quote"



"Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. [DA 652]


"In instituting the sacramental service to take the place of the Passover, Christ left for His church a memorial of His great sacrifice for man. 'This do,' He said, 'in remembrance of Me.' This was the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. The one was to close forever; the other, which He had just established, was to take its place, and to continue through all time as the memorial of His death." {RH 06-22-97 par 1)[{Ev 273.3


"In this ordinance, Christ discharged His disciples from the cares and burdens of the ancient Jewish obligations in rites and ceremonies. These no longer possessed any virtue; for type was meeting antitype in Himself, the authority and foundation of all Jewish ordinances that pointed to Him as the great and only efficacious offering for the sins of the world....{RH, 06-14-98 para. 15}{5BC 1139.5}





Brother Jason, it's talking about the ceremonial part of the law, not the Annual Holy set days of GOD themselves, how do I know this brother Jason? The same reason you got to get back to me later.



EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390




Once again, for how many years now Jason? Luke, Paul and his converts are observing the annual Holy days of GOD... Of their own free will...

you telling me Luke didn't know the Passover days were done away with? and with the same mouth you tell me they taught against observing the annual Holy days of GOD. All I can say is I'm not the one deceiving people.



The first Christians, the Jews then the Gentles observed the NT ceremonies instituted by Jesus during the last supper on the 14th of the month, the time GOD said to observe it.





"From Rome there came now another addition to the sunworshipping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate, in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, the fourteenth of the first month.Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this coloration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years resolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday." (Great Empires of Prophecy, 1898, p. 389 by A.T. Jones)



Let's go over our history lesson brother Jason,


"The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate, in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, the fourteenth of the first month."



History tells us communion was "always" on the 14th day of the month, it didn't change Jason. It continued from the Christian Jews to the Christian Gentles. It never stopped brother Jason, this is way after 70 AD.



Jason wrote: "Are you a Jew? It's an insult to God for you to return to these things."


I'm a spiritual Jew brother Jason... and It's an insult to say Holy days of GOD are done away with, when there are clear facts showing they were still being observed by the apostles and first gentiles Christians.



Blessings to you my brother!

Reasoning you have the wrong reference page but I will post the quote here for all to read. This quote in no way supports feast keeping. Please read the quote carefully and prayerfully. You are making the quote say what it never said. You well know that Christ is the 'true Passover', didn't you know that? 

      

 From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, -- the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday -- the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as unlike the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at absolutism. (Great Empires of Prophecy, 1898, p. 383,384 by A.T. Jones)

What do we see here? Jesus replaced the Passover with the Lord's Supper, but these Jew Christians continue to observe it on the same day as the Passover. This was done in remembrance of the death of Christ who is the true Passover. Rome then chose the day of the sun for the celebration of this day. 

"When the Saviour yielded up His life on Calvary, the significance of the Passover ceased, and the ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted as a memorial of the same event of which the Passover had been a type."
{PP 539.3}

"In instituting the sacramental service to take the place of the Passover, Christ left for His church a memorial of His great sacrifice for man. 'This do,' He said, 'in remembrance of Me.' This was the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. The one was to close forever; the other, which He had just established, was to take its place, and to continue through all time as the memorial of His death." {RH 06-22-97 par 1)[{Ev 273.3}

she said one was to close FOREVER. HELLO? Brother open your eyes 

Peace



Jason wrote: "Reasoning you have the wrong reference page but I will post the quote here for all to read. This quote in no way supports feast keeping. Please read the quote carefully and prayerfully. You are making the quote say what it never said. You well know that Christ is the 'true Passover', didn't you know that? "


Jason wrote: "What do we see here? Jesus replaced the Passover with the Lord's Supper, but these Jew Christians continue to observe it on the same day as the Passover. This was done in remembrance of the death of Christ who is the true Passover. Rome then chose the day of the sun for the celebration of this day. "





What I see is Christian Jews and Gentiles observing the communion service on the 14th day of the first month. That's my point Jason. Let's look at it again, so there's no confusion.




"From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, -- the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday -- the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as unlike the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at absolutism. (Great Empires of Prophecy, 1898, p. 383,384 by A.T. Jones)




Ok, let's break it down




"The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, -- the fourteenth of the first month."



break it down even more



"... and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. "



So it wasn't just Christian Jews, but also Christian Gentiles, can we agree with the obvious brother Jason?



and the main point I'm making to you is this,




"Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, -- the fourteenth of the first month."



Bro., they are still observing the annual Holy day to observe communion, the same day Jesus observed, the same day Luke and Paul with his converts observed. You keep saying the annual Holy days were done away, and I keep showing there not by the examples of the early Church.



But Rome is trying to stop that



"Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday -- the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday"




Daniel 7:25 (Amplified Bible)

"And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time [three and one-half years].


Daniel 7:25 (New Living Translation)

"He will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.


Dan. 7:25 (New American Bible)

"He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year.



You keep posting this quote




"In instituting the sacramental service to take the place of the Passover, Christ left for His church a memorial of His great sacrifice for man. 'This do,' He said, 'in remembrance of Me.' This was the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. The one was to close forever; the other, which He had just established, was to take its place, and to continue through all time as the memorial of His death." {RH 06-22-97 par 1)[{Ev 273.3}



If you believe she is talking about the annual Holy Days, then how do you explain this...




EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390




Brother Jason, you see, communion being observed, and the annual Holy days still being observed. The annual Holy set days of GOD aren't ceremonies, there were OT ceremonies done on the Holy days, but after what Jesus did on the Cross, we have NT ceremonies done on the annual Holy days, as we see from the example of Luke,Paul and converts in Philippi.




Blessings!

PS the other consideration with this is that have clear directives from Jesus how to celebrate the communion while Jesus did not mention a word about passover and how NT christians should keep it. Rather we see Apostle Paul speaking against keeping the Jewish feasts. 

Elijah said, We need to be realistic about these things as Paul says…

Paul also said Christ is the end of the law. Let’s be realistic. Paul did say, Therefore let us keep the feast...

The ceremonies services of the holy days ended in Christ; was he not the Passover Lamb? Yet he said, do this (the Passover service) in remembrance of him.

The Feast of Trumpet for example is a Sabbath celebration of the sounding of the last trump which will herald the second coming of Christ.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.…

Matthew 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Rev. 11:15Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”

So, in this we see how these are shadows of good things to come.

Gene Thanks for your reply Yes I understand the passover was converted by Jesus to the Communion. 

Yes I understand the Trump has not sounded do you keep the day of the trump?

 

How do you think I understand them? Jesus did not convert the Passover to Communion; Jesus said, at Passover, do this in remembrance of me.

Luke 22:14 When the hour had come, Jesus reclined at the table with His apostles. 15And He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before My suffering. 16For I tell you that I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”…

Thank you for your reply Gene please tell me what Jesus was doing in the upper room?

Peace


Gene wrote: "How do you think I understand them? Jesus did not convert the Passover to Communion; Jesus said, at Passover, do this in remembrance of me."

Ian wrote: "Thank you for your reply Gene please tell me what Jesus was doing in the upper room?"



The word Passover can refer to the Passover lamb or Passover days, so when Gene says Jesus didn't convert Passover to communion, he/she should have been specific, and said the Passover days weren't converted to communion... but the Passover sacrificial lambs and rituals were converted to communion. Our examples shows us this by their example and actions.



EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390



They had communion on the annual Holy days brother Ian.. It's right there, they observed the whole eight days of the Passover. The Holy days didn't go anywhere, they weren't done away with like you and others claim.



Blessings!

Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. {DA 652.2}

The Passover was ordained as a commemoration of the deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage. God had directed that, year by year, as the children should ask the meaning of this ordinance, the history should be repeated. Thus the wonderful deliverance was to be kept fresh in the minds of all. The ordinance of the Lord’s Supper was given to commemorate the great deliverance wrought out as the result of the death of Christ. Till He shall come the second time in power and glory, this ordinance is to be celebrated. It is the means by which His great work for us is to be kept fresh in our minds. {DA 652.3}

At the time of their deliverance from Egypt, the children of Israel ate the Passover supper standing, with their loins girded, and with their staves in their hands, ready for their journey. The manner in which they celebrated this ordinance harmonized with their condition; for they were about to be thrust out of the land of Egypt, and were to begin a painful and difficult journey through the wilderness. But in Christ’s time the condition of things had changed. They were not now about to be thrust out of a strange country, but were dwellers in their own land. In harmony with the rest that had been given them, the people then partook of the Passover supper in a reclining position. Couches were placed about the table, and the guests lay upon them, resting upon the left arm, and having the right hand free for use in eating. In this position a guest could lay his head upon the breast of the one who sat next above him. And the feet, being at the outer edge of the couch, could be washed by one passing around the outside of the circle. {DA 653.1}

The Communion service points to Christ’s second coming. It was designed to keep this hope vivid in the minds of the disciples. Whenever they met together to commemorate His death, they recounted how “He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” In their tribulation they found comfort in the hope of their Lord’s return. Unspeakably precious to them was the thought, “As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord’s death till He come.” 1 Corinthians 11:26. {DA 659.3}

These are the things we are never to forget. The love of Jesus, with its constraining power, is to be kept fresh in our memory. Christ has instituted this service that it may speak to our senses of the love of God that has been expressed in our behalf. There can be no union between our souls and God except through Christ. The union and love between brother and brother must be cemented and rendered eternal by the love of Jesus. And nothing less than the death of Christ could make His love efficacious for us. It is only because of His death that we can look with joy to His second coming. His sacrifice is the center of our hope. Upon this we must fix our faith. {DA 660.1}

These are the things we are never to forget. The love of Jesus, with its constraining power, is to be kept fresh in our memory. Christ has instituted this service that it may speak to our senses of the love of God that has been expressed in our behalf. There can be no union between our souls and God except through Christ. The union and love between brother and brother must be cemented and rendered eternal by the love of Jesus. And nothing less than the death of Christ could make His love efficacious for us. It is only because of His death that we can look with joy to His second coming. His sacrifice is the center of our hope. Upon this we must fix our faith. {DA 660.1}

Our Lord has said, “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.... For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.” John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. All this Christ has taught in appointing the emblems of His great sacrifice. The light shining from that Communion service in the upper chamber makes sacred the provisions for our daily life. The family board becomes as the table of the Lord, and every meal a sacrament. {DA 660.3}

And how much more are Christ’s words true of our spiritual nature. He declares, “Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life.” It is by receiving the life for us poured out on Calvary’s cross, that we can live the life of holiness. And this life we receive by receiving His word, by doing those things which He has commanded. Thus we become one with Him. “He that eateth My flesh,” He says, “and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me.” John 6:54, 56, 57. To the holy Communion this scripture in a special sense applies. As faith contemplates our Lord’s great sacrifice, the soul assimilates the spiritual life of Christ. That soul will receive spiritual strength from every Communion. The service forms a living connection by which the believer is bound up with Christ, and thus bound up with the Father. In a special sense it forms a connection between dependent human beings and God. {DA 660.4}

As we receive the bread and wine symbolizing Christ’s broken body and spilled blood, we in imagination join in the scene of Communion in the upper chamber. We seem to be passing through the garden consecrated by the agony of Him who bore the sins of the world. We witness the struggle by which our reconciliation with God was obtained. Christ is set forth crucified among us. {DA 661.1}

Looking upon the crucified Redeemer, we more fully comprehend the magnitude and meaning of the sacrifice made by the Majesty of heaven. The plan of salvation is glorified before us, and the thought of Calvary awakens living and sacred emotions in our hearts. Praise to God and the Lamb will be in our hearts and on our lips; for pride and self-worship cannot flourish in the soul that keeps fresh in memory the scenes of Calvary. {DA 661.2}

He who beholds the Saviour’s matchless love will be elevated in thought, purified in heart, transformed in character. He will go forth to be a light to the world, to reflect in some degree this mysterious love. The more we contemplate the cross of Christ, the more fully shall we adopt the language of the apostle when he said, “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Galatians 6:14. {DA 661.3}

Peace


Ok brother Ian let's go over what you posted, in the statements you've given its talking about priestly temple duties, not the annual Holy set days of GOD. Your trying to say its talking about the annual Holy days correct.? But you won't find nothing specifically talking about the Annual Holy Feast being done away with, nothing...



EGW : "Christ was standing at the point of transition between two economies and their two great festivals. He, the spotless Lamb of God, was about to present Himself as a sin offering, that He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies that for four thousand years had pointed to His death. As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice. The national festival of the Jews was to pass away forever. The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages. {DA 652.2}



She said ".. He would thus bring to an end the system of types and ceremonies..", brother Ian, a Holy day is not a ceremony, you have ceremonies on the Holy Days, but it's not ceremonial. So EGW is speaking of those ceremonies, not the annual Holy days themselves. I can go over every single statement, but there's nothing speaking of the annual Holy days themselves. But if you believe those statements are saying the annual Holy set days are done away with, then we shouldn't find the apostles observing GOD'S annual Holy days if they were done away with at the cross, I mean, you believe it's something they taught right?

But their actions are very important in helping us agree, because you can't say the apostles believed the annual Holy days of GOD are done away with and they are still observing them. That's not complicated at all brother Ian, it's so easy to understand it Doesn't matter how old or young you are.




EGW: "At Philippi Paul tarried to keep the Passover. Only Luke remained with him, the other members of the company passing on to Troas to await him there. The Philippians were the most loving and truehearted of the apostle’s converts, and during the eight days of the feast he enjoyed peaceful and happy communion with them." AA p.390


EGW: "The service which Christ established was to be observed by His followers in all lands and through all ages." {DA 652.2}

Luke, Paul and his converts are observing the whole eight days of Passover and observing the service which Christ established in another land other than Jerusalem... Are they wrong in doing so? Are they denying what Jesus did by His death and resurrection?

Remember, there's no pressure from anyone to observe the annual Holy days, of their own free will they choose to observe GOD'S Holy days. You think we shouldn't follow their example?

I pray you don't continue to be on the wrong side of this issue brother Ian...



Blessings!

Thanks for your reply Reasoning. Naturally, if you feel you need to keep the holy day it is up to you brother. And as you have pointed out the holy days can be kept or not be kept as you please. 

The thing that gets me about all this is that you seem to want to keep the day without the ceremony of offerings that God Himself prescribed. So my question is why do you think we need to keep it, and as it seems a hollow feast day as it seems lacking in many aspects that God himself has prescribed.  

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