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Rob

 

Since the discussion on the other thread had gotten so far off of that thread, I am moving the comments over to this thread.  I'll copy and past the last two rounds of our discussion and we can move on from there.  OK?

 

Ray

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So you have become a judge of sacred inspired text? Did you say you believe in the Bible even though it's not inspired and contain numerous inconsistencies and inaccuracies? Couldn't God have done better?

Good day Jason,

I trust all is well? in response to your statement, I am not a judge of any religious material that a religious revered or considered sacred to them. However, if you are making inference to Jesus statement where Jesus said, one must not judge unless he or she be judged likewise, make note that the said Jesus said, do not judge by mere appearance, but judge with right judgment, thus annulling the false premise for which one wants to use His first statement for. As such, one acting on Jesus' argument - that of assessing the facts, and the subject in question - one will come to the same conclusion that I have posit. However, yes I accept certain aspects of the Bible, for I know and I can handle the facts that inconsistencies, distortions, and all else exist within the pages. Moreover, as I have said the Bible is a application from which one can learn lesson to help him or her mature in their spiritual experience. However, I would lay the problem at God's feet but rather at men who had their agenda whether positive or negative

brother Garth, I fear you are treading on dangerous ground, you as a human can judge God. 

Good morning bro Elijah,

In response to your statement, I acknowledge my error in my sentence, I am saying that I wouldn't lay the problem at God feet, it is men, the translators, who had their agenda whether positive or negative in their attempts to produce the Bible

Thanks for your reply Garth, yes I can agree with you that translators have a lot to answer for indeed. By the same token, I do not have the skill to know if it is right or wrong, as I do not read Hebrew or Greek.    

Elijah, it is not hard reading Hebrew or Greek in the KJV....

Q5: How do you study the Bible words?

Hypothesis: How do you study the Bible words?

Electronic Bible: First you will need an electronic Bible, as using the older paper concordance method of looking up hundreds of Bible verses by hand is too slow.

Power BibleCD is Copyright 2003 by Online Publishing, Inc

The electronic Bible I use is by Phil Lindner, dated 2003, and this older version does everything I need it to. The Greek and Hebrew interlinear is great and easy to use. The software costs from $15 to $20. It comes with many commentaries and Bible translations, but the most useful tool is the Greek and Hebrew Interlinear. I love the electronic Bible because its simple and easy to use, and you can make the font size larger for easier reading as well.

Introduction: In this example of "kathistemi" most people would simply look up the word meaning in a dictionary.

2525. kayisthmi kathistemi, kath-is'-tay-mee

  • Search for 2525 in KJV

    from 2596 and 2476; to place down (permanently), i.e. (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy:--appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.

Never use the Strong's Dictionary for help in word meanings. Typically you are relying on a human for wisdom rather than the Holy Spirit, and Strong's list over 10 different meanings for the Greek word "kathistemi". How ridiculous is this ?

First you have to believe that in any language, all words have a single basic meaning regardless of its context. Sure a few words in any language might have multiple meanings for a word, but it's uncommon or rare. If you don't believe in this assumption, we can't even agree on a Bible method for studying our Bibles. You would have many scholars agreeing with you, for they seem to think any language has hundreds of multiple meaning words in any language, and Hebrew and Greek is no exception. Really people, how can be be so blind to the simple facts of a language ? In the development of a village like language, simple words come into being with a single picture in mind, and over time, perhaps because of technology and from invasions of other cultures would words have other multiple meanings, but generally such things are uncommon.

Method: As an example we will discover what the Greek word "kathistemi" means. For an application of this word in another study, please click here.

So assuming you also believe words should have a single basic meaning regardless of context, we can continue.. Here is the entire list so far;-

(1) Mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

(2) Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

(3) Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

(4)Mt 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

(5) Lu 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

(6) Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

(7) Lu 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

(8) Ac 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

(9) Ac 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

(10)Ac 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?

(11) Ac 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

(12) Ac 17:15 And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.

(13) Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

(14) Tit 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

(15) Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

(16) Heb 5:1 ¶ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

(17) Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

(18)Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

(19)Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

(20) Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

(21) 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.(KJV)

How the Bible says to 'whom shall teach knowledge?' (Isa 28:9) :-

  • (1) Measure truth using big and little marks. .(Isa 28:13)
  • (2) Build truth from the standard of Jesus.(Isa 28:16)
  • (3) Plumb the truth against the .. other marks. (Isa 28:17 and 10)
  • (4) Plough deeply until ..straight, soft and humble (Isa 28:23,24)
  • (5) Beware of human traditions and false prophets.. (Isa 29:4 to 11)
  • (6) Behold the miracle of meekness during study.. (Isa 29:14, 29)
  • (7) Listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit..(Isa 30:21)

As we study the Word "kathestimi" we have to look at the word from the standard reference point, "how does it relate to Jesus", look up all references to this word, thus we study it deeply, stay away from human ideas and pre-conceived opinions, and as we prayerfully do this hour after hour the LORD GOD gives us meekness, while we listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit for wisdom and leaning. That's how we study our Bible words.

Once you have the list, look for an English word that can be pictured as the basic picture for the verses regardless of it's context. Do not use the most common English word already there, but a word that must fit every context.

Like so:-

Mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

whom his lord hath made a ruler..

Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

That he shall make him ruler

Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

I will make thee ruler

Mt 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

I will make thee ruler

Lu 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

Man, who made me a ruler?

Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

whom his lord shall made a ruler over..

Lu 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

he will make him a ruler

Ac 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may make a ruler over this business

Ac 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

and he made him ruler over Egypt

Ac 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?

Who made thee a ruler ?

Ac 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Who made thee a ruler ?

Ac 17:15 And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.

And they ruled Paul bringing him to Athens..

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

For as by one man's disobedience many were ruled sinner's..

Tit 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

and rule elders in every city

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

and [made him] ruler over the works..

Heb 5:1 ¶ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

every high priest taken from among men is a ruler of men in things pertaining to God

Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

For the law ruleth men as high priests

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

For every high priest is a ruler to offer gifts..

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so ruleth the tongue among our members..

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

therefore will be a friend of the world ruleth [as an] enemy of God..

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.(KJV)

For if these things be in you, and abound, they ruler over you, that ye ..

Once your happy with every context sounding OK for the context of every verse, you have found the meaning of the word under study. Sure some context might read strange and badly so a few English prepositions here and there is useful.

So the Greek word "kathistemi" means to "establish or set up a ruler, who rules over things"

Now that we have the meaning of a word that is important to us, we can consider the verses that help us understand Scripture. This is a standard prayerful method of Bible study for understanding every Hebrew or Greek word in Scripture. Its time consuming perhaps, but very faithful and useful to gleam the correct truth from Scripture.

Conclusion: The Greek word "kathistemi" means to "establish or set up a ruler, who rules over things". In most cases Greek and Hebrew words should have a single English meaning that fits all verses of context.

Discussion: Now we will consider some comments from a Greek and Hebrew scholar, who teaches Bible language at University and College level.

The first thing a reader will discover is we do not agree over the finer points of how to read our Bible words even. However, we are the best of friends, and I have a very deep respect for him as a scholar of Hebrew and Greek.

Secondly scholars generally cannot get their communication down to the level of the child like faith we are all supposed to have. One of the things the author gets from Jesus, is its OK to make "truth" simple, even if it is "technically wrong" it is still "satisfactory for the child like faith" at the moment of "present truth". Our "theories of faith" are always developing and always changing as our wisdom and evidence changes with time. Part of the skill of a teacher is to reach the level of the child without compromising "truth too much", so they appreciate the learning and grow up into maturity later with it. Scholars can get very technical in their skills and generally cannot be teachers at the same time, reaching down to those of child like faith.


(1)Romans 8:3 : "likeness of sinful flesh"

I hope you not too busy, and I have tried not to correspond much with you as you are busy, but a have a technical problem..

That only an expert could solve, I will not ask you for application, only for the construct state of these three words ….

Romans 8:3 ………..likeness "homoioma" of sinful "hamartia" flesh "sarx",

I would like you to translate these three words in Hebrew words….

My understanding is the Hebrew equivalent for hamartia is chataah…..but chataah is a noun

Is there an adjective using chataah ? I don’t know of any ? Adjectives are rare in Hebrew…so would these three words be written as in Hebrew as adverb – noun – noun ? ie the likeness of flesh with chataah ? My understanding Hebrew adjectives come after nouns not before them as Greek construct do ?

One other question, but I don’t expect you will agree with me: The word chataah means the offering for sin, or a concept of sin by transference …..thus Jesus in this verse came in the "likeness of sin offering flesh", is the correct understanding of this verse….and the correct understanding of chataah.

Your help in this manner is appreciated….

Thank you for the time considerations; I am sure that you are pressed yourself, too, but it is good to see that you make time for the word of God.

Yes, Hebrew can use a construct chain, using nouns, to give an adjectival phrase. That leads to something foundational here in the Greek of Romans 8:3: en homoiômati sarkos hamartias is, literally, “in likeness of flesh of sin.” There are actually three nouns here. Following the preposition en / ‘in’ that takes a dative (indirect object) in the noun that follows, homoiômati, ‘likeness’, which is a singular, neuter, dative noun (same form as in Phil 2:7). Then sarkos ‘flesh’ is a feminine singular noun in the genitive (or possessive) case, and it is followed by another feminine, singular noun in the genitive case, hamartias ‘sin’. Thus it is like a Semitic construct chain of nouns that amounts to an adjectival phrase: “in [supply ‘the’] likeness of [supply ‘the’] flesh of sin” that amounts to “in the likeness of sinful flesh.”

In Hebrew, we have châṭâ’ or ḥâṭâ’ (actual root: chṭ’ or ḥṭ’) as the verb for ‘sin’ (this is the one I may have mentioned is even used for the opposite idea: ‘de-sin’ or ‘cleanse’: e.g., Lev 14:49); and six nouns for ‘sin’, sometimes ‘sin offering’, with the predominant one (by far) being chaṭṭâ’th or ḥaṭṭâ’t. This last mentioned has approx. 290 usages, with about 155 (53.5%) best rendered as ‘sin’ and 135 (46.5%) rendered as ‘sin offering’.

For Romans 8:3, I personally think that the context about the weakness of the flesh, condemning sin, and the parallel in Philippians 2:7, point primarily to a big picture of what Jesus did in the incarnation, primarily in the sense of actively defeating sin in humanity, breaking its power, and extending to defeating sin passively in His sacrificial offering, hence your idea of ‘sin offering’, but that needs the next thoughts “and concerning/for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” You might be aware that the NIV translates “for sin” as “to be a sinful offering”(?). The full context reads:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-4, NIV)

But that is NIV which varies a lot in its renderings, and I don’t think that you favour it. Maybe this time, but to a limited degree(?)

Notice the response with very difficult technical language : " dative (indirect object)" and things like "singular noun in the genitive case", whatever these terms mean ?

"QUOTE" This last mentioned has approx. 290 usages, with about 155 (53.5%) best rendered as ‘sin’ and 135 (46.5%) rendered as ‘sin offering’"End Quote".

This tells you scholars do not read their Bible words like the method above shown to the reader, but very differently rendering the word as one of multiple meanings depending upon the context. This really empowers the scholar (I feel) and justifies their scholarship at a technical level. Some priests even say reading our Bible is only best left to the Priest, the scholar and not the layperson. Truly can not a child read the Bible and get child like faith from it ?

QUOTE "For Romans 8:3, I personally think that the context about the weakness of the flesh, condemning sin, and the parallel in Philippians 2:7, point primarily to a big picture of what Jesus did in the incarnation, primarily in the sense of actively defeating sin in humanity, breaking its power,"End quote

Notice people have different opinions and different "theories of faith". A theory is like faith, something we have only some evidence for, and remains our belief until better evidence comes along.

You will notice people in general are unwilling to accept the "evidence" from another person, because we are unwilling to accept change, because we value our own "religion" despite the new evidence that may challenge our own "theory of faith". Once a scientist or scholar rejects "evidence" challenging a "theory of faith" in favour of their "older theory of faith", this becomes a "religion over belief" and we see this alot over the same "evidence" that can fit into evolution or creation frameworks, depending upon your religion.

It takes humility to accept new evidence and re-align your theory of faith or complely abandon it for the new theory of faith. It is perfectly OK to have different theories of faith among oursleves, for since the Bible is poetry we are all allowed to see the Bible poetry pictures differently as they seem to us, and that's OK. As long as the pictures of present truth are helping your garden grow, that's OK. None of us can lay claim to knowing all their is about "truth" and that's why the "pebbles of knowledge" we find along the shores of Jesus, are called our "theories of faith" because they are based on only some evidence that comes along our way. Never be afraid to walk along the shores of Jesus looking for newer pebbles and newer experiences of deeper joys from the Great Teacher who smiles at our child-like antics and our growing in His love.

Shalom

Thanks for your reply Rob it's been a while since I saw you here last, But yes it is great you like to share your knowledge with us. I do appreciate that indeed.  

I have ordered a power Bible CD I do think it will be a great resource.

 

Greetings all

How strange this old theme I spoke at length with Pastor Ray is still continuing?

I have some better evidence we should be keeping the feast...

Have a look at the SOP comments here

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1405.htm

The study of "love feast" is interesting.

Shalom

I hope you find the CD electronic Bible helpful Elijah.... it's the child like method of Bible study

we need to develop and learn...time consuming yes, but simple to do....

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm How Scripture says Scripture should be studied across several chapters found in one place in Scripture...

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1095.htm How I use Power CD to study Scripture words

Shalom my friend

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