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The sixth commandments says:  THOU SHALL NOT kill

I find this very difficult to  respond especially if you are the one killing 

someone,  you do not even know.   it would be nice to have an open discussion 

on this issue, and to see how  adventist  will respond to this  delicate issue about killing.

sir james

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So, do you feel the need to be nailed to lumber?  How long have you had a Messiah complex?

You are taking a position that the Bible nor SOP support based on social convention.  As far as assuming you being Christlike by saying you would die for our sins by allowing yourself to be crucified for our sins, would be of none effect.

Then how would you deconstruct something so twisted around the axle, and bizarre?  I am having difficulty seeing this any other way:

"Oh, let's see, Jesus' mission was to die for everyone's sins.  Is that ours?"

"Maybe not, but if we do not identify ourselves completely with His mission and interests, then we are not His."

Maybe not, implies logically that the response means that such a thing is possible.

How is that putting words in someone's mouth when it is their mouth that sad it?


"Are you accusing Jesus of sin? Did He commit suicide by allowing Himself to be crucified, when He had the power to prevent it?"

What do you think makes a person say something that out of place? I just don't get it....

Christ didn't want to die.. He asked if there was another way, while so stressed out He was seating blood.. He had to die to protect us.. That isn't suicide it is martyrdom..

Reading these posts I wonder if there is a bit of self righteousness going on.  "I am such a great Christian I would never kill in self defense like those redneck gun owners (for example).  I will be a glorious martyr"   

When faced with death and torture we should be humble and pray that God will be with us and give us strength, just like Jesus did in the garden.  Are we better than our master.  Do we assume that because we are well read vegan Christians that we would not stumble when someone has us tied to a chair and is about to pull out some fingernails to find out who our Christian friend are?   We hear so much about the coming NSL but we fail to realize that we have brothers and sisters around the world who are already facing death and torture.

That said no it is not murder to defend yourself or others.  It is a God given right, but to face death for our faith in Christ is a whole other matter and it would be an honor. 

Well said:  Study history, like the Waldenses, and God delivered them by military advantages so a few killed many invaders.

I think few really understand that in many countries where there is no government or law to protect Christian families, having a basic means of self defense would not be a sin and would be quite welcome.  Seeing your family stoned, burnt, hacked or raped is beyond what we who live in lawful countries understand.  

As noted, the word in the law means murder.  According to the Bible that is laying in wait to assassinate someone.

God considers those who sin as being outside the protection of the law and under penalty of death. They have, you might say, "Destroyed themselves" by their actions.

Governments are ordained by God to protect us and execute criminals. Jesus said of Pilate: You would have no power [to execute Me] if it was not  given from above.

Under the Constitution we may possess arms as a militia--self government.  That means you can protect your home and lives by any means rather than sit idle waiting for the "salaried" militia.

Home invaders have a motto: "Dead men tell no tales." and they enter homes meaning harm. So, my private and armed militia will deal with lawful force when someone kicks in my door--day or night. 

If you post a sign on your front yard, No Firearms On This Premise, watch what happens.

Anything is a weapon.  Some are more effective than others.  If someone broke into my home, I would throw the toaster at them, etc. until I made my way to a firearm.

Yup, and IDK about you but as good as my aim is I am more likely to kill someone with a smack to the head with a frying pan, than a gun. If I have a gun I can just threaten, or deliver an easily repaired flesh would.. 

The easily repaired flesh wound might anger an assailant and get you killed as well.  Shooting an animal, or human is not like the movies.

Nelson Acosta-Sanchez had proved surprisingly difficult to catch. Mr. Acosta-Sanchez, who was accused of the statutory rape of a 14-year-old girl, had already eluded capture, slipping out of the police’s grasp and later swimming across a reservoir before disappearing.
Joshua Bright for The New York Times
The house near which Mr. Carlson shot the suspect, Nelson Acosta-Sanchez.

Sparrowbush is about 90 miles from New York City.
On Oct. 11, he turned up near the home of David Carlson, who lived with his family on Old Plank Road in Sparrowbush. Mr. Carlson knew that Mr. Acosta-Sanchez, who had recently been staying in a nearby cabin, was a wanted man. Mr. Carlson, who had already tried taking him to the police, ended up firing his shotgun four times, hitting Mr. Acosta-Sanchez twice, killing him.

The authorities suggest the shooting death was a case of vigilante justice, but his relatives and neighbors in the northwest corner of Orange County say Mr. Carlson was a hero who tried to corral a fugitive to bring him to the police and ended up needing to defend himself.

Mr. Carlson, 42, a slender carpenter and father of three with sandy hair and sharp blue eyes, was released on Friday on $100,000 bond after being indicted by an Orange County grand jury. The state police, in arresting Mr. Carlson after the shooting, had initially held him on a charge of second-degree murder, but the charge under which he will be prosecuted will not be disclosed until a formal indictment is issued next week, the district attorney said on Friday.

Even the supervisor of the town whose police took Mr. Carlson into custody expressed some doubts as to what happened.

“It gets fuzzy,” said Karl Brabenec, the supervisor of Deerpark, which includes the hamlet of Sparrowbush and has 8,000 people. “We don’t know if it was self-defense or if he took the law into his own hands.”

His neighbors, several of whom rallied outside his bail hearing on Friday, said Mr. Carlson was just trying to protect his family.

“The community was living in fear for a couple of days and the police had failed to capture him,” Anna M. Li, Mr. Carlson’s next door neighbor, said, referring to Mr. Acosta-Sanchez. “No one here is in fear of David. He was doing his best to protect his family and community.”

Mr. Acosta-Sanchez, who told neighbors he was a native of Spain who taught Spanish in France, made his way last summer from Ramapo, in Rockland County, to the wooded hills of Sparrowbush, about 90 miles from New York City, where an acquaintance lent him a small, unheated cabin.

He was living in that cabin on Old Plank Road and doing odd jobs for neighbors, including Mr. Carlson, whom he helped to build a stone wall and a chicken coop and to chop firewood. He revealed to Mr. Carlson recently that there was a warrant out for his arrest. The warrant was from Ramapo.

One of Mr. Carlson’s lawyers, David Wallace, suggested on Friday that some sloppy police work may have contributed to Mr. Acosta-Sanchez’s death.

After learning of the warrant, Mr. Carlson called the Deerpark police, Mr. Wallace said, and set up a ruse. Mr. Carlson would take Mr. Acosta-Sanchez for a drive and the police would pull the car over for speeding.

The ruse worked, and Mr. Acosta-Sanchez was placed in a police car. But then, Mr. Wallace said, Mr. Acosta-Sanchez told officers that he needed his identification. They drove him to the cabin, he went inside and then he slipped away into the woods.

The Deerpark police chief, William R. Werner, did not return a call asking for a comment about that account.

Mr. Brabenec said the Police Department, which has three full-time officers, was tipped off the next day, Oct. 10, that Mr. Acosta-Sanchez was on the run, and in the evening called in the state police, an Orange County sheriff’s officer and state park police to arrest him.

Mr. Acosta-Sanchez, he said, fled and managed to elude the police by swimming across Rio Reservoir (pronounced RA-yo), the site of a hydroelectric dam, and crossing into the neighboring town of Lumberland in Sullivan County.

The next day, Mr. Brabenec said, Mr. Acosta-Sanchez returned to the cabin and encountered Mr. Carlson.

According to another of Mr. Carlson’s lawyers, Ben Ostrer, Mr. Carlson, training his shotgun on Mr. Acosta-Sanchez, forced Mr. Acosta-Sanchez to walk down Old Plank Road to the nearest house.

No one was home, so Mr. Carlson fired a warning shot to alert neighbors that he needed assistance. He did so again at another vacant house, Mr. Ostrer said.

What happened next is unclear. Mr. Ostrer said that Mr. Acosta-Sanchez had engaged in an “aggressive act” and that in response, Mr. Carlson fired his gun at his captive’s arm. The shot did not disable him, and according to Mr. Ostrer, Mr. Acosta-Sanchez “continued to act aggressively.” Mr. Carlson fired again, hitting him in the head.

“We believe the evidence shows this was a tragic and justified shooting,” Mr. Ostrer said.

When Mr. Carlson left jail on Friday, he declined to discuss the case or his relationship with Mr. Acosta-Sanchez.

“I’m glad to be going to my family,” he said. “I’m just looking forward to seeing them.”


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