Adventist Online

What do you think??

Views: 4872

Replies are closed for this discussion.

Replies to This Discussion

:) :) :)

H'mm ... I like that: Thick grace vs thin grace :)


Luke 16:15 God sees what is in your heart.

1 Samuel 16:17 The Lord looks at the heart.

The answer is yes.  It is possible.

Judges  16:30    And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with [all his] might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that [were] therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than [they] which he slew in his life. 

Hebrews 11:32    And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:  
 11:33    Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,  
 11:34    Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.  
 11:35    Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Maybe I can be accused of desperately looking for Hope for Leo Schreven because I have been so personally touched by his The Revelation of Jesus Christ series on 3ABN.  Maybe it's because I'm impressed by the fact that thousands of directly attributed to Leo their first real introduction to a Saviour who loves them and has established a plan of Redemption for them.  Maybe, I hope Leo's family will find solace in the Arms of Jesus and those of His children who can embrace them in Christian Love, free of guilt and recrimination.

Suicide is definitely not God's will.  Neither is death by any number of means, especially when one is divorced from reality as one can be when suffering from extreme depression as one would under Bipolar Type I (previously known as Manic Depressive).  There is no conscious decision to invite the devil in to use one's mind as a playground and only God can heal one from this.  However, one has to be in a position where the mens rea can be established i.e. the true intention that leads to the action/consequence.

In Leo's case, as has been said correctly, only God knows how much conscious, sane thought went into the decision to grab a gun and end a life when, apparently Leo had plans for at least 20 more years of Adventist evangelism, had a wonderful and supportive family and church.  I think therein lies the nub of the issue: conscious, sane choice.  Please read this article about Bipolarism:

Leo had not entered a suicide pact like those children in the UK a few years ago.  he was not under extreme scrutiny for a perceived shameful act like the receptionist who took a hoax phone call this week from Australian DJs and put them through to the ward where Kate, the Duchess of Cambridge, was a patient - the receptionist killed herself in a park.  Leo had not sought fame like Beyonce, Jay-Z or Alice Cooper and sold his sold to the Devil.  He was not Janis Joplin or Jimi Hendrix.  His fruit showed him to be an out and out Man of God.  Indeed, such a man of God that he drew extreme heat from demonic forces because of his gift for communicating the Biblical truth to his listeners.

Suicide was not a fanciful romantic temptation for a man who thoroughly believed that a single cherished sin could keep one eternally from the Birthright God offers.  If you look at Luke 8:26-39, the demoniac did not ask Jesus for healing and had lived for many years suffering because of these demons.  It was not until circumstances brought Christ INTO his presence that he was given healing because Christ could see the man beyond the demons.

Thus, I agree with the suggestions made by Angel Rodrigez in the following article:

We cannot judge what was the last sane thought in the head of someone who commits this act, only God can.  He can weigh whether a life of service was recklessly abandoned or torn away from one whose last moments were shrouded in darkness and hopelessness.  Even if there appears to be an element of premeditation, was it the act of a man who you know in his right mind would never have considered such a option as a viable choice?

I am not God.  But I do hope to see Leo again in the first resurrection.  if I do not, I trust God to lighten my heart and show me why Leo did not make it when I look through the Books and judge even angels.  If he does make it,  as undoubtedly many will who we would in our earthliness be surprised about, I for one will be glad.

Thank you, Shaun, for this thoughtful and thoughtprovoking reply.

You said it better than I could in another thread when I suggested that Jesus can read the heart even when the mind is deranged by illness (The death of Brother Leo Schreven)

We can safely leave the destiny of Leo in our great Creator's hands. The act of suicide is not necessarily  sure indicator that the individual is eternally  lost, as you so well illustrate.

Ronald, thanks for your diplomacy.  I really do get where you are coming from.  I just happen to think that the final say is with God, not us.  I also stated that I may be accused of being desperate, not that I necessarily am desperate.  On reading the end of my response you would have noticed that there was not an air of presumption but of Hope on behalf of Leo in the same way I hope that my own Adventist mother makes it, even though she left behind of consciously designed barriers for me to break down with other members of my family.  I know in my mother's case that alot of what she did was from her battle with insecurity and envy regarding the attention I was rightfully paying to my own family over her, ignoring all the good things I had done/was doing for her.  So there is pain in the knowledge and the likelihood that Mum probably won't make it; but Hope because I believe in a God who can achieve the Impossible every day of the week.

And so we come to Leo, who, when sane was a loving father, brother and evangelist with an inspiring enthusiasm for the Word.  I cannot and would not ever justify suicide - so do not mis-quote me.  But although God judges entire nations, he still judges the individual.  Therefore, where I can see your issue from the point of never condoning suicide - leave it to God to judge every man - Jimi Hendrix included.

Leo had not sought fame like Beyonce, Jay-Z or Alice Cooper and sold his sold to the Devil.  He was not Janis Joplin or Jimi Hendrix.

Let's keep them out of this discussion...In particular regarding Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix.  I have met, in particular, Jimi Hendrix's best friend and can say that these indeed may be some of your surprises in heaven.  You do not know their story nor whether or not they battled with the same issues that your spiritual leader Leo did; some may even say that because he was a spiritual leader, his spiritual accountability in his life is greater.  

I wish that we would pray more, believe and hope for what may seem impossible,  and presume less. 


You may be right.  But people who LIVE a lifestyle of consistently belittling the Word, of believing their knowledge of the spiritual realm is deeper than Christ's (Beatles) and their consistent abuse of the Temple through narcotics and alcohol are also having demons play in their heads.  The difference between them and Leo is that their lifestyles indicate that they openly invited the possession after rejecting God.  

But, even at the last, Salvation is open to all and I do hope that a fantastic guitarist like Hendrix will be playing a harp in the heavenly courts.

You are right that Leo's accountability may well be held to a higher standard in some respects.  But consider this:  what was the cause of Leo's bipolarism? was he a drug abuser or was his illness congenital?

many of the aforementioned artists have publicly acknowledged their allegiance to the devil and were never diagnosed with such illnesses as Leo's prior to drug abuse.  Indeed, because their appeal reaches across millions of people beyond cultural barriers, their exposure and the exposure of their Untruth indeed puts hem at a far higher level of accountability than Leo.  Thus, your argument really is groundless in that respect, sister.  

Leo was not my spiritual leader.  Christ is and I hope He is yours too. I leave Leo's fate in God's hands.

You are right that Leo's accountability may well be held to a higher standard in some respects.  But consider this:  what was the cause of Leo's bipolarism? was he a drug abuser or was his illness congenital?

Does it matter what the cause of his bipolarism?  No.

My point is very much on target, we look at people and see who they are--God looks and sees what they can be.  Most of your influential Christians, started out as Saul....

It all starts with conscious choice and conscious decision.  


Site Sponsors


Adventist Single?
Meet other Single
Adventists here:
Join Free

USA members:

Support AO by
using this link:


© 2020   Created by Clark P.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service