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 "God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan......hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth"

" I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canna, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But the angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump." EW 258.

Question: does the bible teach that other will take account for our sins. 2nd, How did she know William Miller would be saved for sure, before his sins had been "blotted out" in the investigative judgment.

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Herbert Leon Bryan:

"Miller did know he was sinning when he predicted the date of Christ return"

Matt.  24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake.{1T 59.1}
..... At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. {1T 59.2}

Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man.{1T 60.1}

This happens after probation closes.  By that time, there's no need to conceal the time of the actual 2nd coming.  God reveals it, so the saints know how long they will have to stand in this earth without an intercessor in the sanctuary.  The early Adventists believed that this time had already come.  When they realized they where wrong, this is known as "The Great Disappointment", compared to how the Apostles were in error concerning Christ's 1st coming.

Rush

You are reading the SOP and Ellen White's teaching about the withdrawl of the Holy Spirit after Christ leaves the Most Holy Place. There is no evidence for this in the Bible. And God help us if the Holy Spirit is withdrawn, because we will be left with our own sinful natures and hoplessly lost. There is also no scripture which confirms that we will know the hour of Christ return, and we know that Miller was wrong, thus he was in error (sinning.) As humans we often don't have the faith necessary to trust in God and allow Him to lead. Setting dates is a lack of trust, as we try to anticipate Christ or even force his hand. This was the mistake made by Judas with ominious consequences. We must trust that God has his appointed time, and each day more saints are being added to the fold. Let's do our job of service so that we cand stand amongts them.

 

Leon

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"The first angel's message......is also a warning that the investigative judgment has begun"

It says:  "the hour of his judgment is come".  I call it "the hour of his judgment".  What do you call it?  What is it?  You don't believe this was 1844?  You don't believe it's the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14?

Well, people can see, from the fig tree that we are in the last days, or "the judgment day".  But:

Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

It's not for confusion about the 2300 days or what goes on in the Heavenly Sanctuary, that they drink blood, but for their willingness to partake of the blood of the saints, which is what happens when you refuse to come out of Babylon.  That's why EGW calls it a crucified message.  By rejecting, they oppose those who obey the Commandments, and will eventually become the power that enforces the Mark of the Beast.

In the 3 angels message, it says Babylon is fallen, and warns us about Babylon's agenda.  In Rev. it also says Babylon is guilty of much bloodshed of the saints, and warns us not to partake of that blood.  To reject this warning, and to refuse to separate from Babylon, is spiritual death.

     "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. " {GC 588.1}

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"In my understanding Babylon would symbolize the world and religious practice that follows the ways of the prince of this world the Devil."

"The Third Angel proclaims the Mark of the Beast which is to be influenced by the Devil both in thought and action."

You don't believe the Mark of the Beast has anything to do with Sunday?  You don't believe Babylon is the Catholic church, and her daughters are the protestant churches that are uniting with her?

No Rush I don't belive that it is only the Catholic Church, but the world in general. There are many religions and many forces of evil under the power of the Devil which result in opression of Gods people. Today most Christians  are opressed by other religious, rather than within as was the case in the middle (dark ages.) Prior to the Dark ages Christians were opressed by Rome and other pagans. Each were led by the Spirit of Satan who seeks to devour Gods Children. By concentrating Bablyon on one entity, we miss the influence Satan has over the entire world. The Catholic Church was not the only Church state government, and Prodestents did their fair share of oppressing and the Devil seeks to disrupt and cause division in every Christian organization. Thus, we must look for the influence of the Devil on the world itself in all entities and religions (including our own,) and invest in our future which is Heaven and an eternal relationship with God.

Leon

 

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"By concentrating Bablyon on one entity, we miss the influence Satan has over the entire world."

You need to brush up on your Adventist doctrine:

Rev.  14:8 "...Babylon is fallen, is fallen...."

It says it twice, signifying Babylon, the mother of Harlots, and her daughters, the fallen Protestant churches, which are making appliances with the Papacy.

Rev.  17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"You are reading the SOP and Ellen White's teaching about the withdrawl of the Holy Spirit after Christ leaves the Most Holy Place. There is no evidence for this in the Bible."

Gen. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh....

That's all the time I have right now.  More later....

Rush

God is referring to shorteing the life of man, not removing the Holy Spirit from those who want it. Without the holy Spirit we are lost to sin. You are quoting the SOP, in which were was some confusion about how the Holy Spirit functions regarding redemption. They felt the Holy Spirit assisted in refining Character rathen than transformed within. Most of the Pioneers were confused about the personage of the Holy Spirit, thinking it was more like a force or influence rather than physical presense. Thus, there empahsis on Christianity had more to do with self discipline in lifestyle, rather than Character refinement. Ellen White focused on both Character refinement and self discipline, unfortunately we as an organization have preferred to highlight lifestyle issues.

Leon

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"There is also no scripture which confirms that we will know the hour of Christ return"

Nobody said we did.  But God's people will know, as probation closes, so they will know how long they will have to stand without an intercessor.

Herbert Leon Bryan:

"Which leads me to conclude that God is juding the actions of the saints to determine if they have done enough to be saved. This belief would lead one to think that we are saved by our works, taking the empahsis off of Christ."

We've been over this.  The Bible is very clear that everyone is judged according to their works.

Rush

Salvation by works in not a protestant belief; we belief in salvation by Grace. The Cahtolic Church teaches salvation by works. (see below). And the bible is cyrstal clear in maintaining that we are not saved by our own effort but by the Grace of Christ. I realize that many in our church are confused about this issue. You may want to do some studying regarding the significance of the new covenant.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

 

 

Attaining Salvation in Roman Catholicism

by Matt Slick

Salvation, in Roman Catholicism, is a process with many steps: Actual Grace, Faith, Good Works, Baptism, Participation in the Sacraments, Penance, Indulgences, and Keeping the Commandments.  Basically, salvation is attained through baptism and good works.  It is maintained by good works and participation in the sacraments.  If lost, it is regained through the sacrament of Penance which only a Roman Catholic priest can administer.  Add to this purgatorial cleansing after a person dies, and you can see that salvation is an arduous process.

In Catholicism, a person can gain salvation and lose it many times depending on the number of sins committed, their severity, and how much of the sacraments they participate in--in order to regain grace which enables them to do good works by which they are justified. Furthermore, justifying grace is infused into the Catholic upon baptism and via the sacraments.  This grace can be gradually lost through venial sins or forfeited all together with mortal sins. 

I do find it quite interesting, when you read about it in books, and other churches of other faith's do mention as publisjed, God seems to select people to appear in front of them as visable in body simular as light , or in flesh, so when we read of William Miller, it appears he did get in right, when you read the details and create a huge study of it, oh boy I had did look for sources of information, I have wept, trembled, there are days that I cannot prevent from doing, I will ponder a thought and I'll will have a holy thought and will have a tear,  William Miller is a victim of dislike, hatred, and why people looking for wrongs and pointing finger, I believe all Willaim Miller good righteous written works should be researched by theologians and canonised as scripture and holy written works, Willaim Miller is a founder of the first adventist church and he should be widely respected for it, and when we cannot see evidence of appearance, for we are blind in the soul, or a righteous man not pointing finger showing this is the evidence here or for all we know now, the 'Lord Jesus Christ has Cometh' he awaits on the Holy Mountain......oh boy he's really doing this...... Ponder on this my dear friend.

I also know from major pioneers they fell persecution of 1800's from hangings, shooting to death, much of this is written in canonised books of churches of other faiths like Eddy Baker & Ellen White, and Journals, sadly in Australia we do find information of the conflicts, where we read about the hangings of peoples in the towns, I do read about a Evangelist being hanged upon a tree, and it appears to be a adventist, so sad that it is to be in late era of 1800's, when I read of it as a possible ancestor, my eyes does fill with watery tears, it appears Australia had the judgements of England-USA Goverance of hanging or might be a result of persecuters of the town-gangs.  Thank goodness we have the churches and faith of people that we do have now.....

Dave,
Before you jump on canonizing him, have u read his memoirs compiled by bliss Sylvestor?
Mutinta

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