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I am debating an X-SDA person who says the Father alone exists....

He says Jesus never existed before Mary's time.

The Holy Spirit is just a force of the Father...

Sounds like a Jewish concept of GOD, the Father only.

So how can the Father demonstrate love before Creation? How can the law of love operate if there is nobody else to love ?

Here are his comments :

Love has always existed in the Father because He IS love.

You cannot equate human love with the Yahweh’s love. We are incapable of loving someone who doesn’t exist, but Yahweh can because He knows the future. He knew you would one day exist, so He was able to love you before your birth. You did not know your children would someday exist, therefore you could not love your children beforehand.

Rev 17:8  The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


In other words, I am trying to show you that Yahweh could love before there were any people to love. If He could love the world and us before we existed, then He could also love Yeshua before He existed.

In terms of humans, the smallest unit of love is a husband and wife. Two are needed, not three. Both husband and wife are providers, nurturers and responders to each other.

Yahweh was all three by Himself.

I thought love could only be expressed by relational Beings (plural)...

I think he is confusing knowledge with is an action word...

it is not a knowledge word, but love is only defined in Scripture by what a Being does for another Being....can anybody prove this to be correct ?Or is love also the ability to predict the future and show feelings into the future that haven't been experienced yet ?

I can say I loved my children in the past only up until they were born....but I cannot say I will love my children hundred years from now...because love is only manifested by what you the present continuous time...

OK I get it that GOD knows those who are saved even before they are born, but does this also demonstrate love ? I do not think so....


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Hello Rob, I have to agree with the person you’re debating.

Jesus did not exist in the beginning. In the beginning was the Word, and God; they both were One and they were God.  The Word became the Son, and God became the Father. This is the love of God. The plan of salvation required the Godhead to transform. This transformation opened the door for human beings to become children of God, and to be brought into the family of God.

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the beginning, this is because it is not a God being. It is (I believe) the intelligent power of God—the power which is required to affect the work of salvation. It was given to Jesus in full measure while on earth, and given to us as a promise from the Father.

It's great to meet another believer in the theory of faith Gene, but personally I don't buy it, however I would love to have your opinions expressed here publically as a debate if your willing, because in the end of time we have to defend our theories of faith....and I feel after over 30 emails to my X-SDA friend that I am ready having studied this for quite a while now,'s quite a challenge to traditional SDA faith....

I am willing to discuss this if you're willing as well, other SDA people may choose to read, as we discuss evidence in Scripture over this issue....


The Word has always existed, but Jesus has not always been. The Jesus Factor was plan B; it came about as method to close the divide that was created by the fall of man.

Matthew 1:20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

2 Corinthians 5:18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This flesh was in the form of Jesus in order to save His people from sins.

Philippians 2:6who, being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped,7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of men.8And having been found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, death even of a stake.9Elohim, therefore, has highly exalted Him and given Him the Name which is above every name.

The Word became flesh Jesus, the Son; in order to save men from sin. It was all God plan from the foundation of the world.

This guy is just making stuff up. I am not sure whether what he said make sense to you, but to a rational being, this is pure nonsense. 

For God to be Love there had to be two or three persons or beings... The bible reveals three persons in the Godhead...

The Bible says God is love. God’s whole essences, God’s entire being is love; even if no one or nothing else existed but God, God would still be what makes Him love, and that is love.

Didn't you learn in primary school that love is an action word? 

Indeed love is an action, God shares His love through His creation, and through His wonderful acts toward man.

1 John 4:10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 2 John 1:5

"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. John 15:9

I see Jason is discussing things well with you Gene....

We know in the beginning there was an uncaused cause that made matter, time and space.

Now before any matter ever existed, there had to be a MIND that chose to bring matter into existence.

We also know that gravity, mass, size, time and space are outside of this MIND....

We also know that certain laws exist in this MIND, one of them is LOVE.

However we have a problem to explain, love is something you do to other beings. AND if no other Beings exist apart from a single uncaused cause, this would violate the Law of Love.

My X-SDA friend says Yahweh can love himself....

Can anybody explain how this is possible ? The Bible defines such a concept as pride, selfishness and missing.

Why is this concept called missing ? Because love implies a flow of power from one Being to another, that's why love is known as missing. But if you have a single Being, you are missing something, because love cannot flow at all....

For example consider a is a source of love, but it cannot love itself. Neither is there any love inside the battery. Love is only when a circuit is placed between TWO relational Beings, and then love flows out of one relational Being into the other relational Being.

There are other examples I can't explain because Science cannot explain it. For example the Sun is a source of power, that seems to make a flow of light without using two relational Beings....Science even to this day does not know where light comes from and how the Sun is powered...I suspect many relational concepts are used, but I cannot explain them....

Another example is light the wax and it makes light, a flow of love. But here the light is made from a flame, that comes from a fuel that is combined with other relational Beings, hence light from candles comes from a relational cooperation of entities, allowing this flow of love to occur.

There is no example of a flow of anything that I am aware that happens on its own....

And indeed I cannot reason how the Father can love if only He existed....He could not, and for this reason the uncaused cause had to be co-eternal relational Beings (plural).


Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 1 John 4:7

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:10

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

Yes I hope your Friend has not been Indoctrinated by the Jehovahs Witnesses Who have these strange Antichristian Ideas. God did always exist as did the Word and the Holy Spirit. 

The Bible says that nothing was made without the Word. and we know the Holy Spirit was mentioned in the fist verse's of the Bible. Any one who deny these things are Antichrist according to John.

sin is self centered


perfection and love and wholeness is other centered


The God Family of Three have always delighted in each other

putting each other first in eternity

not just two locked in like star struck lovers ignoring everyone on a family picnic

but THREE!

three always spotlighted in each others hearts

going around in a circle that never ends

oh wait it did end

when JESUS GOD left the other two to be put in a sinners womb


when sin came along we see LOVE demonstrated thru the God Family

giving of self for another (us)

in totality

that is the GOSPEL!

it compels our hearts !

#love can only be relational to another


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