Shalom to all the saints
I have a question maybe has been addressed before, can one be an Adventist and not believe in the writings of Ellen White.commonly called the Spirit of Prophecy. I ask this because , there are facts that have been hidden from ordinary saints such as
1.) that Ellen White made false prophecies and plagiarized most of her works that even the things written as the inspired word of God were plagiarize. she also made false prophecies.
google the Bible Conference 1919"
2.) that the writings of Ellen white are the Spirit of Prophecy mentioned Rev 19:10 this is very unbiblical
3.) that the Investigative Judgement teaching does no hold water
4.) what are the implications on our baptism that have a condition that we accept EGW as being a prophet.
I have met and discussed with many fellow Adventists some who know about this, others who do not and amongst all these grouping are a section that will say they do not believe in the works of EGW. Thus may heading that can we be adventists that do not believe in Ellen White.
Well, of course you can get out amicably. But it is dishonest to firmly disagree with my points, then as I respond, to say that you didn't want to do it this way. Besides, it distracts from the fact that the case you made did not stand. So why this alternative "I didn't want this", instead of "Seek the truth, hear the truth, learn the truth, love the truth, speak the truth, hold the truth and defend the truth until death". (Jan Hus)
Yes I agree with you it is easy to call something truth, but that doesn't make it so. But didn't you just do that? I've proven my position. It is Biblical. No one has been able to have shown otherwise. So yes, it is true. It is supported. I have yet to see anyone for Investigative Judgment to do the same.
"Pravda Vitezi (Truth Prevails)" - Jan Hus, First Protestant Reformer. Welcome to the Adventist Truth Revolution.
No, I mean it's dishonest to say that you wanted to have a discussion, but really you did engage me in a debate by disputing my points (which is fine), only to switch tactics by saying "I don't like your methods", as a cover for having your points disproven. You could've just been honest and said, "I see your point". And yet again, you've not disputed the Biblical evidence. Therefore, I might as well conclude that Investigative Judgment is not true, and therefore Ellen White who endorsed it with visions is proven a false prophet. Therefore Adventists need to wake up before its too late and embrace the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the only hope.
"Seek the truth, hear the truth, learn the truth, love the truth, speak the truth, hold the truth and defend the truth until death". "Pravda Vitezi" (Truth Prevails)
- Jan Hus, First Protestant Reformer.
"And you shall know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
- Jesus Christ, King of Israel.
All judgement texts are associated with the unbeliever, the wicked. Jesus makes it very clear that the righteous are covered with His Robe of Righteousness. As Christ is without sin, as long as we remain in Him we are outside of any judgement, for if we were under judgement, then Christ Himself would be under judgement.
For judgement to be given in favour of the saints, then they are acquitted and no longer under judgement. The saints are free from judgement.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Yes it surely did begin at the house of God, for God took upon Himself the judgement of the world at Calvary. Try reading the text in context, it will make the meaning of what Peter is saying clearer. The books of the Bible were not meant to have texts taken out of context, for taken out of context they can be made to mean many things that the author did not have in mind.
It's ok.. It's easy to be misunderstood in print.. lol
I have not studied the investigative judgment in detail yet. There are some questions that come up after your statement:
a) When will the judgment of the righteous take place? Can one ever be removed out of the one Book of Life? Or is maybe the book of life continuously updated until the very return of Jesus?
b) How do you interpret Peter?
1. Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
c) Do you see anything wrong with the day-to-year concept in the interpretation of prophecy in general or just here?
If you are keen to investigate it, some good books on this topic of IJ are Clifford Goldstein's 2 books, 1844 Made Simple, and Graffitti in the Holy of Holies. Goldstein is pro-IJ. He was the one who convinced me of it in the first place. Some books on the opposite side are by Desmond Ford, For the Sake of the Gospel, and his mammoth book, Daniel 8:14 - The Day of Atonement & the Investigative Judgment. There are many more books on it, but that's just to start you off. There are much more points to deal with other than the 6 I presented, but the 6 I presented are I think suffice to decide one way or the other.
As with regards to your questions,
a) Do you mean when will Investigative Judgment take place? If so, because I believe there is no case for IJ, then the question for the time at which it takes place is taken away. But also, I don't believe that the Bible mentions any setting of dates at all.
Your next question: Can anyone ever be removed from the Book of Life? Well, sure, I don't see any reason why. i'm not sure how this helps IJ. But let's not be obsessed with how is it removed but having it on there, and we can do that by having faith in the One who Atoned for us. The question leading from that of the BoL being continually updated - I think it's pretty fruitless to start thinking about updates and when. This is because as far as I'm concerned living for Jesus and in Jesus i the now for all believers in all ages. Worrying about dates and updates is only missing the point of His Saving Atonement which is Love.
b) 1 Peter 4.17 has to be read in its context which starts more or less from 1 Peter 3.13 and ends about 4.19. The context is all about suffering with trial and testing (4.12) which actually purifies us (having your life threatened is guaranteed to do that, 3.18, 4.1-2). And this is what the readers of Peter's letters were going through at this point in time. Therefore, he tries to reassure them of their oneness with the Lord, who has suffered to save us (3.18, 4.13), and of their being 'blessed' (4.14). So by the time it comes to 4.17, the word Judgment has to be in line with this theme - if it meant Investigative Judgment it would not be encouragment but discouragement, and would stick out of the context which is worldly trial and suffering. Remember he's trying to encourage them through suffering. So instead the word Judgment can be seen to mean the firey testing times of trial (4.12), which could also mean at the same time worldly court trials or judgment halls (4.5-6) where they have to "give an answer for the hope" that is in them (3.15), completely consistent with the context. Ultimate punishment is left for those who persecute them. This theme of suffering through worldly trial coupled with the punishment of the persecutors is echoed in 2 Peter 2.9 and 1 Peter 4.5-6. But it doesn't really give any firm grounding to IJ.
c) In all honesty I haven't explored it. I've read from Associate Editor of the Seventh-Day Adventist Commentary Raymond Cottrell that scholars agree it has no basis generally, but I'm not sure yet because it has been applied to a specific situation as the traditional Adventist position quotes (in Numbers I think). I think it's not out of the question. But my contention is not to do with that. I believe that 2300 evenings and mornings in Dan 8.14 is best understood as 2300 sacrificial evening and morning services, given the context, which totals 1150 days. And I also believe that the command to restore and build jerusalem referred to in Dan. 9.25 is in Neh 2 (445 BC) not in Ezra 7 (457 BC). Lastly, the Bible defines a year or prophetic year if we want to be specific as 360 days. If the day-to-year principle were true, I don't believe it should be applied here because there is clearly no mention or indication to do so. If one tried to do so, it would yield no results since the start date is different and the length of time is different is different.
I hope that answers all your questions satisfactorily.
Here the Investigative Judgment is taught by Jesus Christ himself:
(1) And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
(2) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
(3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
(4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
(5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
(6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
(7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
(8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
(9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
(10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
(11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
(12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
(13) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
There are 5 points we want you to notice here:
Point # 1: Once the wedding was furnished with guests, the king comes in to “see” those present. While seeing, he finds a man unprepared for the wedding (verse 11). With all the people that were present the king found one unprepared individual there. The king’s “seeing” and finding this certain individual must have therefore been an investigation he performed upon those who were there.
Point # 2: This is not a scene of heaven, but of earth, because both “good and bad” are present. This means that when the king “investigates” those present, he is investigating those upon the earth.
Point # 3: The king can be none other then God himself. If God, then he has to be in heaven, looking (investigating) down upon the earth, for God on earth would result in the destruction of the earth by reason of his glory. Therefore God, from heaven, is investigating both the good and bad people on earth.
Point # 4: After the king performs the “investigation” of the people at this wedding, he finds a man unprepared and as a result pronounces a “judgment” upon him (verse 13). This is therefore an “Investigative Judgment” because along with the investigation there was a Judgment.
Point # 5: This scene of the “Investigative Judgment” takes place before the Second Coming. Notice what Jesus says in Luke 12:
(36) And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
(37) Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Notice in verse 36 how it specifically says that Jesus will come “from” the wedding. If therefore the wedding and the marriage were the same event, how is it that he comes “from” the wedding to pick up his children? The marriage, says John the Revelator, is the Second Coming:
(7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
If the above verse were read in context, you will find two very important points:
A) Just before verse 7, all those in heaven proclaim, “True and righteous are his Judgments…” (verse 2) God has performed a Judgment in heaven upon the wicked on earth before Jesus’ Second Coming. The greek word translated “Judgments” here is “krisis” which can be subjectively (for) or objectively (against). In other words, God just finished performing either subjective or objective Judgments upon people before the coming. This is why we read of both “good and bad” in the Investigative Judgment (the wedding) of Matthew 22. An objective Judgment was pronounced upon that “great whore” –verse 3.
B) Right after this verse, a scene of the Second coming of Jesus Christ is seen:
Revelation 19:11- 21
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God… And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
The fact that verse 7 says that the marriage “of the Lamb is come” and that his wife has “made herself ready” shows how both Christ and his bride (the true church) will be “united” with him at his Second Coming. The “marriage” is the “unity” of Christ with his bride the church… as a marriage is the unity of a man with his wife.
That the Investigative Judgement is taught by Jesus Christ himself should be good enough for our critics... we hope.