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Dear Friends on Adventist Online,

 

I would appreciate if you could read the article written by one of my country man to one of our daily newspapers. He is a roman catholic christian. He wrote this article after Pr. John Carter completed an Evangelistic meeting in my country, Papua New Guinea (PNG).

 

How would you counter the arguments presented in his article? How would you answer the questions (in bold) he asked?

 

Please provide your response. We've exchanged mails in the last 3 days, and now I would like to respond to his article. I will do my own study and prepare answers for a meaningful discussion with him, but I would appreciate if you could give your response to his arguments.  

 

I pray that may the Holy Spirit Lead him to the light, and just like Paul, He can be changed and be the advocate for truth.

 

 

CLAIMS BY SDA CHURCH IS LAUGHABLE

Thirty years ago, the Australian Seventh Day Adventist Church Pastor John Carter visited PNG and gave a two weeks on the so-called SDA Revelations Seminar at Sir Hubert Murray Stadium. Carter claimed that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon alluded to in Revelations 17. Moreover, he alleged that its Pope, is the anti-Christ depicted by 666 of Revelations 13. Repeating Ellen White’s allegations in her book The Great Controversy he claimed the Pope will conspire with USA and together, they will persecute every Seventh Day Adventist Saturday Sabbath-keepers on earth before Christ returns. This claim is as ridiculous as it is laughable. This cultic mentality is believed only by fervent SDA believers even though Mrs. White’s interpretations lack biblical support and modern day indicators. But then SDA’s are sworn to believe and not question whatever Mrs. White has written (embedded in the SDA’s “ever-changing” 28 Fundamental Beliefs).
The SDA church is now being rocked by its own biblical scholars in USA, Europe and South Africa who are denouncing the teachings of Ellen Gould White as non-biblical and cultic. The church’s crusades and seminars are no longer publicly advertised under the name of the church because of embarrassment. Instead, the church sponsor is veiled by banners and glossy eye-catching advertising posters such as “Amazing Discoveries” and “Health Seminar” which targets nations such as PNG whose christians are still behind revelations and revolutions in the global Christian kingdom.
In this first visit to PNG 30 years ago, Pastor Carter’s parting challenge was to give K1,000 to any Roman Catholic who could prove by the bible that Sunday is a day of worship and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Not surprisingly, the good pastor was relatively subdued during his second visit to Port Moresby last month. SDA bible scholars such as Robert Brinsmead, Professor Desmond Ford have found that the bible is silent on both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath for Christians. The Old Testament taught Sabbath-keeping for God’s chosen 12 tribes of the Jewish ancestry. This teaching was never extrapolated to the first Christians of the New Testament. In fact St. Paul in the New Testament taught the early Christians of Rome, Colossae books and the Hebrews not to observe Jewish traditions including the Jewish Sabbath keeping and outlawing eating “unclean” food such as pork and mackerel (yes, to be consistent, mackerel too).
If Pastor John Carter wants the bible to be used as his standard of test, I challenge him - or any of his disciples - to prove by the bible that the Jewish Sabbath applies to Christians. Pastor Carter should clearly explain (without convoluting simple bible texts with Mrs. White’s literary deception) why Jesus exalted Love as the greatest commandment - in the books of Matthew, John and 1 John - and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Why did Jesus teach that Love is the greatest commandment by which “hangs all the prophets and the law” (Mt 22: 35-40)? Leading SDA tele-evangelists such as Ps John Carter and Ps Doug Bachelor are themselves entangled in the internal conflicts confronting the SDA church in the US and Europe but avoid talking about it. As a result, when they mount the pedestal in countries not up to speed with religious revelations and revolutions, they become too immodest to inform these uninformed about these great controversies rocking the firmament of the SDA Church in USA. Instead they are courageous about publicly persecuting Sunday worshippers, the Pope and the Catholic Church.
A former SDA Australian Pastor, Robert Brinsmead (sacked by the SDA Church for questioning Ellen White’s teachings) pleads in his book, “Judged By The Gospel”, to test the teachings of Ellen Gould White by the Bible and not the other way around. In addition, I am pleading to SDA’s in PNG not to place too much credence in the new SDA version of the Bible, the “Clear Word Bible”. This is because SDA’s own bible scholars are horrified that the so-called “Clear Word Bible” have been corrupted in a lot of places in order to vindicate the false and wrong teachings of Mrs. White. They say that is akin to the “tail wagging the dog”, or “making the crime fit the punishment”.

 

 

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Hello Ross,

very useful information.

thanks

Ross:
   EGW was not original in the "Health Message".  Others BEFORE her taught the same things.  She had copies in her library of the books form which she reportedly copied their teachings.

  Some parts of her writings are "verbatim" taken from book found in her library.   This and other informtion is what the church apparently hasn't been totally honest adn disclosing their finding with members.

A M

No one said that EGW was original about the health message.  Also, note this comment.

"In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but in some instances no specific credit has been given, since the quotations are not given for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject. In narrating the experience and views of those carrying forward the work of reform in our own time, similar use has been made of their published works."  {GC xi.4} 

The literary rules in Ellen White's day were different from what we have today.  In her day, she went beyon what was required in order to make sure that she was clear as to how she used the writtings of other authors.  So, to insinuate that she was dishonest is not quite an accurate statment.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray

 

If EGW's writings are directly from God, and must be heeded, the lets gather together all of the books that she used verbatim and follow them too. If God's direct words were to them, then they must be prophets. I can't understand why God would need to copy the words of others. Seems to detract from the awesome power of God to me. Surely he can be original. Surely he could see what massive criticism and controversy would be caused by EGW using the same words as others and how many would question her in entirety and end up leaving the church over the issue. Why would He not simply give her original words?

Don't have time to go into great details, but long story short - any church leader who publicly disputes anything that EGW says gets the boot. In the Ford era that was in the order of hundreds of pastors around the world and they are just the ones who had the courage of their conviction. There were a great many ho stayed silent to keep their jobs. The question posed by the Christian world at that time was this - is EGW an infallible interpreter of scripture for the SDA church? If she is not, why is it a test of fellowship to support her? The SDA church has answered this question in words, but then answered in truth with their actions. They were that EGW is their infallible interpreter of scripture. That is a nice way of saying blasphemy.

When you talk about the law, which part of the law must be followed? BTW I am not aware of a single SAD person who keeps the sabbath in the same manner of how Christ kept it.

Lastly, in John, the writer uses the word 'entele' which in every other instance that he uses it, it refers to 'teachings' not 'commandments' many versions of the Bible reflect this. You seem to be good at quoting scripture so here we go - quote me the passage of scripture in the New Testament that mentions the sabbath particularly as a commandment that is to be followed. PS I can show you multiple times in the NT where every other commandment in specifically commanded.

Also, where Paul is preaching to the gentiles and in many cases people who were not sabbath keepers, you will be able to show me where he specifically teaches them the most important commandment - the fourth. Just let me know the verse/s so I can be finally rested on this issue.

Blessings.

Joshua you are saying that 9 of the ten commandments should be followed except the one which says remember <?

Can you see how silly this sounds ?

Jason, I don't think anything in the Bible sounds silly. All I can do is read it and talk about it to others. I am saying that I can find where 9 commandments are specifically commanded in the NT at least 6 times each in numerous areas, but I can't find a single reference where a sabbath commandment is commanded in the same light in the NT. If you could find one for me, I would be very thankful.

Blessings.

Thank you for this Gabriel. I am sure you are aware that this is a heavily disputed passage even among certain SDA scholars. I will look into my research on this passage further and get back to you shortly, however I do note that there is only one mention of the work 'sabbath' in the book of Hebrews. There are 16 in Exodus.

Blessings.

Thanks Gabriel, Jason already copied this Q&A and posted it earlier. He hasn't got back to me with the source yet, would you please let me know where this is copied from so that I can look at it in full context?

Blessings.

Here is a commentary on this topic (not mine).

The privileges we have under the gospel, are greater than any had under the law of Moses, though the same gospel for substance was preached under both Testaments. There have been in all ages many unprofitable hearers; and unbelief is at the root of all unfruitfulness under the word. Faith in the hearer is the life of the word. But it is a painful consequence of partial neglect, and of a loose and wavering profession, that they often cause men to seem to come short. Let us then give diligence, that we may have a clear entrance into the kingdom of God. As God finished his work, and then rested from it, so he will cause those who believe, to finish their work, and then to enjoy their rest. It is evident, that there is a more spiritual and excellent sabbath remaining for the people of God, than that of the seventh day, or that into which Joshua led the Jews. This rest is, a rest of grace, and comfort, and holiness, in the gospel state. And a rest in glory, where the people of God shall enjoy the end of their faith, and the object of all their desires. The rest, or sabbatism, which is the subject of the apostle's reasoning, and as to which he concludes that it remains to be enjoyed, is undoubtedly the heavenly rest, which remains to the people of God, and is opposed to a state of labour and trouble in this world. It is the rest they shall obtain when the Lord Jesus shall appear from heaven. But those who do not believe, shall never enter into this spiritual rest, either of grace here or glory hereafter. God has always declared man's rest to be in him, and his love to be the only real happiness of the soul; and faith in his promises, through his Son, to be the only way of entering that rest.

you are wrong my friend, nine of the ten commandments are mentioned in the new testament,  the one left out is not the 4th. 

read your bible and you will see 

thanks but i am giving him some homework. actually nine of the ten commandments are mentioned in the new testament, and the one left out is not the 4th commandment 

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