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Dear Friends on Adventist Online,

 

I would appreciate if you could read the article written by one of my country man to one of our daily newspapers. He is a roman catholic christian. He wrote this article after Pr. John Carter completed an Evangelistic meeting in my country, Papua New Guinea (PNG).

 

How would you counter the arguments presented in his article? How would you answer the questions (in bold) he asked?

 

Please provide your response. We've exchanged mails in the last 3 days, and now I would like to respond to his article. I will do my own study and prepare answers for a meaningful discussion with him, but I would appreciate if you could give your response to his arguments.  

 

I pray that may the Holy Spirit Lead him to the light, and just like Paul, He can be changed and be the advocate for truth.

 

 

CLAIMS BY SDA CHURCH IS LAUGHABLE

Thirty years ago, the Australian Seventh Day Adventist Church Pastor John Carter visited PNG and gave a two weeks on the so-called SDA Revelations Seminar at Sir Hubert Murray Stadium. Carter claimed that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon alluded to in Revelations 17. Moreover, he alleged that its Pope, is the anti-Christ depicted by 666 of Revelations 13. Repeating Ellen White’s allegations in her book The Great Controversy he claimed the Pope will conspire with USA and together, they will persecute every Seventh Day Adventist Saturday Sabbath-keepers on earth before Christ returns. This claim is as ridiculous as it is laughable. This cultic mentality is believed only by fervent SDA believers even though Mrs. White’s interpretations lack biblical support and modern day indicators. But then SDA’s are sworn to believe and not question whatever Mrs. White has written (embedded in the SDA’s “ever-changing” 28 Fundamental Beliefs).
The SDA church is now being rocked by its own biblical scholars in USA, Europe and South Africa who are denouncing the teachings of Ellen Gould White as non-biblical and cultic. The church’s crusades and seminars are no longer publicly advertised under the name of the church because of embarrassment. Instead, the church sponsor is veiled by banners and glossy eye-catching advertising posters such as “Amazing Discoveries” and “Health Seminar” which targets nations such as PNG whose christians are still behind revelations and revolutions in the global Christian kingdom.
In this first visit to PNG 30 years ago, Pastor Carter’s parting challenge was to give K1,000 to any Roman Catholic who could prove by the bible that Sunday is a day of worship and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Not surprisingly, the good pastor was relatively subdued during his second visit to Port Moresby last month. SDA bible scholars such as Robert Brinsmead, Professor Desmond Ford have found that the bible is silent on both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath for Christians. The Old Testament taught Sabbath-keeping for God’s chosen 12 tribes of the Jewish ancestry. This teaching was never extrapolated to the first Christians of the New Testament. In fact St. Paul in the New Testament taught the early Christians of Rome, Colossae books and the Hebrews not to observe Jewish traditions including the Jewish Sabbath keeping and outlawing eating “unclean” food such as pork and mackerel (yes, to be consistent, mackerel too).
If Pastor John Carter wants the bible to be used as his standard of test, I challenge him - or any of his disciples - to prove by the bible that the Jewish Sabbath applies to Christians. Pastor Carter should clearly explain (without convoluting simple bible texts with Mrs. White’s literary deception) why Jesus exalted Love as the greatest commandment - in the books of Matthew, John and 1 John - and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Why did Jesus teach that Love is the greatest commandment by which “hangs all the prophets and the law” (Mt 22: 35-40)? Leading SDA tele-evangelists such as Ps John Carter and Ps Doug Bachelor are themselves entangled in the internal conflicts confronting the SDA church in the US and Europe but avoid talking about it. As a result, when they mount the pedestal in countries not up to speed with religious revelations and revolutions, they become too immodest to inform these uninformed about these great controversies rocking the firmament of the SDA Church in USA. Instead they are courageous about publicly persecuting Sunday worshippers, the Pope and the Catholic Church.
A former SDA Australian Pastor, Robert Brinsmead (sacked by the SDA Church for questioning Ellen White’s teachings) pleads in his book, “Judged By The Gospel”, to test the teachings of Ellen Gould White by the Bible and not the other way around. In addition, I am pleading to SDA’s in PNG not to place too much credence in the new SDA version of the Bible, the “Clear Word Bible”. This is because SDA’s own bible scholars are horrified that the so-called “Clear Word Bible” have been corrupted in a lot of places in order to vindicate the false and wrong teachings of Mrs. White. They say that is akin to the “tail wagging the dog”, or “making the crime fit the punishment”.

 

 

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Pleanty of questions. I can do you one better. Please find as follows commandments of NT:

1st - Worship God -

(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

2nd - No Idolatry -

(20 times) Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

3rd - No Profanity -

(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

5th - Honor Parents -

(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

6th - Murder -

(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

7th - Adultery -

(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

8th - Stealing -

(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

9th - Lying -

(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

10th - Don't Covet -

(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14

I don't think anyone in the real world would consider Mark 2:27 a commandment. Look at it in context. Christ is defending Himself and the disciples against the accusations of the Pharisees and Sadducees. 

PS - You could have used Matthew 19:18 for commandments 5-9 (10 too with a slightly open interpretation).

Hello Gabriel, No. 4 is skipped because there is no NT 'commandment equivalent'. I personally researched every single ention of the word sabbath in the Bible and tried to find anywhere in the NT where the word sabbath is used in the same context as an OT commandment, but there was not a single example.

Blessings.

Jason, with all due respect, I have read and read for months on this. I have specifically asked you to quote your Biblical proof. Please do so.

Blessings.

ok 

I am looking for Biblical proof that like all of the other 9 commandments, the sabbath is repeated as a post ascension command in the New Testament. Please see my earlier posts. I note that I have provided an interim response to your refernce to Hebrews 4.

Joshua

let us use some common sense . you are saying that 9 of the ten commandments are still binding but the one  which says remember is abolished. 

something written with the finger of God twice and spoken by him 

Jason, I am saying that when Paul says that 'the law' was nailed to the cross, he meant just that. The ENTIRE law. Just like he says. He doesn't make any distinctions. It is replaced with the teachings of Christ.

Blessings.

therefore all the commandments are nailed to the cross right ? therefore we don't need to keep any commandments. The law which we will be judged from was nailed to a cross 

That is not the case, as I have previously said, the commandments or teachings of Christ while he was on earth are what we are to follow in following Him.

Bird of Paradise 

Consider this counsel from God's word.

    "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."  Matthew 7:6 (ESV) 

In this article, I do not see any evidence of an author who has an open mind, merely one who is trying to stir up controversy to sell papers.  So, I would not spend alot of time trying to answer his arguments.  With his background as a Catholic, he is not in a good position to cast stones at anyone else.

However, he does raise an interesting question when he wrote:

"If Pastor John Carter wants the bible to be used as his standard of test, I challenge him - or any of his disciples - to prove by the bible that the Jewish Sabbath applies to Christians."

This guy is so far out on a limb that he can hardly see the tree.  Here are some passages for starters.

The Sabbath was institued long before there were any traces of the Jewish nation.  It was instituted in Genesis 2, at the end of Creation week by God Himself.  This is anything but a Jewish worship day.  There most certainly were no Jews alive then.

Then God gives the reason for giving mankind His Holy Day.  God says:

    "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you."  Exodus 31:13 (ESV) Also see Ezekiel 20:12, 20. 

The love of the seventh-day Sabbath is a sign that God is sanctifying us.  If we do not have a love for God's holy day, it is becasue we are attempting to make ourselves good in some other way.  This applies to any who want to come to God in any time of earth's history.

Here is a description about what kind of a being God is.

    "God is not man, that he should lie,
        or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
    Has he said, and will he not do it?
        Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19 (ESV) 

Then Jesus said:

    "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."  Matthew 12:8 (ESV)  Also see Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5.

The seventh-day Sabbath is the true "Lord's day."  Stated to be so clearly by its Lord and Master. 

Then in Hebrews 3 and 4 we find this discussion.  In 3:10, 11, we are informed that God was not happy with Israel, so they would not be allowed to enter into God's rest, i.e. the Sabbath day.  And in following verses, we are warned to not loose out on the Sabbath blessing by following their example of unbelief.  The conclusion is that:

    "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,  [10] for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."  Hebrews 4:9-10 (ESV) 

Those who fail to enter into this rest, do so at their own loss. 

As a Catholic, if he knew his church history, he would know that his own church boasts about the fact that they changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day of the week.  They claim that ability to make that change as a sign of their authority.  So, by their own admission, there is no more authority for keeping the first day of the week then the word of the pope.

So, his accsations against Ellen White come across as quite hollow.  For the Pope proclaims that He is God's Vicar on Earth and that he has been given the authority to even close up heaven to those who do not follow his instructions.  No one in the SDA church, not even Ellen White has made such blaphemous claims. 

So, his article comes across more as the pot calling the kettle black.  For the actions of his church are far more laughable then anything the SDA church has done or claimed.

Remember, he who laughs last, laughs best.  Since God claims the Sabbath as His Holy day, to scoff at it is to scoff at God.  No one who scoffs at God will have the last laugh.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray


  

Hello Ray,

thanks for the words of wisdom and the contribution.

I appreciate the comments made by others too.

It is not a suprise that you are faced with this catholic accusations about our church doctrines, and much more he is really not a bible scholar. I dont blame him because he has been used of catechisms fabricated catholic doctrines. Why am I saying so simple: he neither knows the Catholic doctrines nor does he know what the bible says. if he knew his church (catholic) doctrines and some bible passages he wouldnt say the sabbath or sunday the bible is quiet over the matter.

Apostle Paul was right when he was inspired saying "Therefore, since we have this ministry, as have received mercy, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, NOT walking in craftiness NOR HANDLING THE WORD OF GOD DECEITFULLY, but by manifestation of the TRUTH commending ourselves to every man's conscince in the sight of God.... BUT EVEN IF OUR GOSPEL IS VEILED, IT IS VEILED TO THOSE WHO ARE PERISHING,,, WHOSE MINDS THE god OF THIS AGE HAS BLINDED, WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, LEST THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL OF THE GLORY OF CHRIST, WHO IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, SHOULD SHINE ON THEM. FOR WE DO NOT PREACH OURSELVES, BUT CHRIST JESUS THE LORD, AND OURSELVES YOUR SERVANTS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.... FOR IT IS THE GOD WHO COMMANDED THE LIGHT TO SHINE OUT OF DARKNESS WHO HAS SHONE IN OUR HEARTS TO GIVE THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST". 2 CORITHIANS 4:1-6

"prove to me from the bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy catholic church alone. The Bible says 'remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The catholic church says NO. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilised world bows down in the reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic church". (by priest Tomas Enright, CSSR, President of Redemptorist College, Kansa City, Mo,,, in a lecture at Hartford Kansas , February 18, 1884, and printed in the Hartford  Weekly Call, February 22, 1884, and the American Sentinel, a New York Roman Catholic journal in June 1893, page 173

Will give my detailed view later God bless

Reveres T

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