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Dear Friends on Adventist Online,

 

I would appreciate if you could read the article written by one of my country man to one of our daily newspapers. He is a roman catholic christian. He wrote this article after Pr. John Carter completed an Evangelistic meeting in my country, Papua New Guinea (PNG).

 

How would you counter the arguments presented in his article? How would you answer the questions (in bold) he asked?

 

Please provide your response. We've exchanged mails in the last 3 days, and now I would like to respond to his article. I will do my own study and prepare answers for a meaningful discussion with him, but I would appreciate if you could give your response to his arguments.  

 

I pray that may the Holy Spirit Lead him to the light, and just like Paul, He can be changed and be the advocate for truth.

 

 

CLAIMS BY SDA CHURCH IS LAUGHABLE

Thirty years ago, the Australian Seventh Day Adventist Church Pastor John Carter visited PNG and gave a two weeks on the so-called SDA Revelations Seminar at Sir Hubert Murray Stadium. Carter claimed that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon alluded to in Revelations 17. Moreover, he alleged that its Pope, is the anti-Christ depicted by 666 of Revelations 13. Repeating Ellen White’s allegations in her book The Great Controversy he claimed the Pope will conspire with USA and together, they will persecute every Seventh Day Adventist Saturday Sabbath-keepers on earth before Christ returns. This claim is as ridiculous as it is laughable. This cultic mentality is believed only by fervent SDA believers even though Mrs. White’s interpretations lack biblical support and modern day indicators. But then SDA’s are sworn to believe and not question whatever Mrs. White has written (embedded in the SDA’s “ever-changing” 28 Fundamental Beliefs).
The SDA church is now being rocked by its own biblical scholars in USA, Europe and South Africa who are denouncing the teachings of Ellen Gould White as non-biblical and cultic. The church’s crusades and seminars are no longer publicly advertised under the name of the church because of embarrassment. Instead, the church sponsor is veiled by banners and glossy eye-catching advertising posters such as “Amazing Discoveries” and “Health Seminar” which targets nations such as PNG whose christians are still behind revelations and revolutions in the global Christian kingdom.
In this first visit to PNG 30 years ago, Pastor Carter’s parting challenge was to give K1,000 to any Roman Catholic who could prove by the bible that Sunday is a day of worship and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Not surprisingly, the good pastor was relatively subdued during his second visit to Port Moresby last month. SDA bible scholars such as Robert Brinsmead, Professor Desmond Ford have found that the bible is silent on both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath for Christians. The Old Testament taught Sabbath-keeping for God’s chosen 12 tribes of the Jewish ancestry. This teaching was never extrapolated to the first Christians of the New Testament. In fact St. Paul in the New Testament taught the early Christians of Rome, Colossae books and the Hebrews not to observe Jewish traditions including the Jewish Sabbath keeping and outlawing eating “unclean” food such as pork and mackerel (yes, to be consistent, mackerel too).
If Pastor John Carter wants the bible to be used as his standard of test, I challenge him - or any of his disciples - to prove by the bible that the Jewish Sabbath applies to Christians. Pastor Carter should clearly explain (without convoluting simple bible texts with Mrs. White’s literary deception) why Jesus exalted Love as the greatest commandment - in the books of Matthew, John and 1 John - and not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Why did Jesus teach that Love is the greatest commandment by which “hangs all the prophets and the law” (Mt 22: 35-40)? Leading SDA tele-evangelists such as Ps John Carter and Ps Doug Bachelor are themselves entangled in the internal conflicts confronting the SDA church in the US and Europe but avoid talking about it. As a result, when they mount the pedestal in countries not up to speed with religious revelations and revolutions, they become too immodest to inform these uninformed about these great controversies rocking the firmament of the SDA Church in USA. Instead they are courageous about publicly persecuting Sunday worshippers, the Pope and the Catholic Church.
A former SDA Australian Pastor, Robert Brinsmead (sacked by the SDA Church for questioning Ellen White’s teachings) pleads in his book, “Judged By The Gospel”, to test the teachings of Ellen Gould White by the Bible and not the other way around. In addition, I am pleading to SDA’s in PNG not to place too much credence in the new SDA version of the Bible, the “Clear Word Bible”. This is because SDA’s own bible scholars are horrified that the so-called “Clear Word Bible” have been corrupted in a lot of places in order to vindicate the false and wrong teachings of Mrs. White. They say that is akin to the “tail wagging the dog”, or “making the crime fit the punishment”.

 

 

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Bird of Paradise:
   I would love to help you compose a reply, I need you to state plainly each question you wish for which you wish to have a response, numbering them 1). 2) 3) etc.

Hello A M Brown,

Do you know of any scholars in the SDA church who denounce the teachings of EGW as non-biblical and cultic? If so, who are they, and on what grounds have they done that?

Thanks.

Jay Jay:

    You must know that the internet is filled with ex SDAs and their findings in Sis Whtie's writings,  that caused them to leave the church, also from pastors who have taken with them their entire congregations.

    This information is out there for anyone investigating SDA doctrine as a potential members, as well as those who just want to find fault with it, who hate the Sabbath and everything we stand for.

    I'd rather not post names, of people/pastors and reasons they left, but  anyone who can access the internet can find multiple web sites against the SDA church and EGW for themselves.

    I have read that most new converts in the USA do not stay but for a few years.  When they start looking online at the information gathered there and when they ask other members of pastors to help them discusses what they have found, that is either contradictory to or cannot be supported bythe scriptures,  they get no good answers.

    Too often in the answers, they just refer to EGW's inspiration, or what "she said" with is not what the Bereans did, they searched the Scriptures, before they believed Paul.  We should not uphold error in anyone, regaredless as to who they are.  Remember Paul had to rebuke Cephus for his prejudice, so if there are errors in EGW's teaching, why should not it be admitted,  and move on.

    I think this is why the SDA church is growning faster in the developing countries than in the USA.
    One SDA church in my city, during a Bible study the name Ellen White came up, and one of the new members had never heard of her!

    So there are many churches in the USA are distancing themseves from her writings and her prophecies, including those that did not come to pass which you won't hear about in the church.   

     One fact that many SDAs are amazed to hear is that the SDA church is not the only Sabbath keeping church on earth.  There are 1000s of them, who have never been part of the SDA church.

    www.biblesabbath.org

    Most of them don't keep Christmans as that is PURELY a Roman Catholic Holiday. 
    Was EGW correct in encouraging the keeping of Christmas, which is as much a commandment of the Popes as is the commandment to keep SUNDAY?

 

A M

The Bible says:

   " . . . . . Jehoshaphat stood and said, "Hear me, Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem! Believe in the Lord your God, and you will be established; believe his prophets, and you will succeed." 2 Chron. 20:20 (ESV) 

This is one reason why the church is failing in so many areas today.  God's prophet(s) have been disregarded and instead people have been following false prophets, who claim to be speaking for God.  When doctrines and practices are advocated by those who claim to be called by God, it weakens the church, for these messages do not come from God and those who bring them are false prophets. 

When the counsel given through Ellen White is followed, the church becomes stronger.  But, those who are not truely converted find her counsel to be burdensome, so they prefer popularity rather than fidelity, ease rather then the Christian battle.  We are seeing the results today in the church of that choice.

One other thing.  This has been brought on by those who claim to believe her writtings and who have gone beyond what she has said. while claiming to be following her counsel.  Going beyound what God says, through any prophet, always brings this result.  We must be careful to only go as far as God tells us to go, and not beyond.

Yet another reason is that instead of taking her counsel for one's own growth, many have used it as a club to beat others into submission.  This has had the same result.  All inspired counsel is given for "our admonition," not to be used to beat others into submission.

So, the problem is not unique to the writtings of Ellen White.  It is the same problem that the Bible has had over the centuries too.  Another sign that her writtings were inspired by the same author.  For it is God who is really the one being attacked.

Maranatha :)
Ray
 

One of the problems the church has not adequately addressed with the issue of "plagerism".

Plagerism has always been disapproved, even though there may not have been a law against it.  And that is what has been proven that Sis White did, with  many of her writings that she said instead, that "the Lord showed her".

One of the standard answers is the "the Lord showed her" where to look for what she wrote, but that does't fly with many people.

There is not other prophet in the BIble other than Moses that Jesus pointed to and Jesus himself that we must believe.

When you place another AFTER Jesus, and on the same level as Jesus and Moses, with no other witnesses (two or three witnesses are required to establish a matter), people see a "red flag" and go elsewhere.

Regarding her being a prophet, she doesn't say that she is, however the church says she is.    And if a new person doesn't agree that she is a prophet, and now a new convert must at baptism, acknowledge her (Jesus did not require any but Diety to be acknowledged at baptism), the church has gone to far.

Why add anyone or any church to the baptismal vows when Jesus did not?

 

WHAT HAPPENED TO JUST FOLLOWING THE COUNSEL OF GOD AND HIS HOLY WORD!  I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND LOOKING TO ELLEN WHITE FOR COUNSEL. 

good contribution brown, especially 


     One fact that many SDAs are amazed to hear is that the SDA church is not the only Sabbath keeping church on earth.  There are 1000s of them, who have never been part of the SDA church.

    www.biblesabbath.org

    Most of them don't keep Christmans as that is PURELY a Roman Catholic Holiday. 
    Was EGW correct in encouraging the keeping of Christmas, which is as much a commandment of the Popes as is the commandment to keep SUNDAY?

Are you SDA?

I was and studied Theology at an SDA university for a short while.

Pastors Doug Batchelor and John Carter, never use Ellen G. White to prove doctrines from the bible. All of the sermons I have ever heard them give have been proven from scripture. If they do use Ellen G. White it is merely on the basis of emphasizing the point already made by the bible. Just go and have a look at the video sections on this website and see for yourself. 

Furthermore, do you not find it unusual that despite all of his ranting he has not used one single scripture from the bible to disprove the pastors? He should at least bring his biblical proof that we are wrong.

Praise God for the work that these pastors are doing, we need more people to stand firm and let the light shine!! Speak the truth no matter the consequences!!!

Amen,Jay Jay.

Both Batchelor and Carter use EGW interpretations of scripture when applying an interpretation to a verse. I like that you call what I have posted as 'ranting' - that is very mature. What I have asked is for you to provide Biblical proof to what you are saying as per my precious posts. If you have a look at all of my posts, I have referenced Bible verses to the tune of 60 or more. In regard to Sunday worship, you will again note that I do not support this, but rather that the requirement of keeping sabbaths (weekly, monthly, seasonal, annual and 49, 50 yearly) are no longer required. Supporting texts have been provided in other posts here.

The thing that I find interesting about Batchelor and Carter and the predominant SDA attitude towards evangelism is that they seem to focus on reaching those who are already Christian. By the church's own figures, there are only 1500 church missionaries worldwide and of these only a very small percentage minister to 'unreached' peoples. I saw what Carter was doing in PNG. Let me just say that the press releases were not entirely accurate.

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