Did God use physical force to cast Lucifer out of Heaven?
Did God use physical force to cast Lucifer out of Heaven?
Someone says: We know that Lucifer and his angels did not war with themselves and then kick themselves out of heaven.
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Answer:
Those who do not really believe that God's love is infinite and that He never changes by so much as a hair's breadth, will argue that there was a limit to His patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Their proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:
"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."
To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.
But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the stuggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behaviour as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.
"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.
In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.
The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.
It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:
"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.
Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.
As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.
sky
Someone says: We know that Lucifer and his angels did not war with themselves and then kick themselves out of heaven.
*******************************************************
Answer:
Those who do not really believe that God's love is infinite and that He never changes by so much as a hair's breadth, will argue that there was a limit to His patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Their proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:
"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."
To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.
But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the stuggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behaviour as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.
"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.
In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.
The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.
It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:
"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.
Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.
As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.
sky
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jim on
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Hi Sky,
You said, "It is true that Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. This is what the Bible says. But in order to understand how one needs to read Ezekiel 28. This chapter tells us, in no uncertain terms, that at the time of the executive judgment Satan will fall at the hand of the most terrible of the nations. They will bring him down to the pit. This is how God will destroy him. He will not interfere with the wicked when they turn against him to make him pay for all the sufferings he has caused. They will accuse him of being responsible for their being lost forever and will bring him and his evil angels down."
Can you explain how human beings can do physical harm to the spirits?
Also, how does God's allowing evil humans to tear apart Lucifer (assuming this is what you are saying will happen) make God look any better than if God Himself destroyed Lucifer? What difference does it make?
I myself am OK with God's destroying the wicked like the Bible says He will do by sending fire down from heaven to consume them.
I believe that during the 1000 years, the righteous will study the lives of the lost and will determine the punishment that each should suffer. That's why the Bible says the saints will reign with Christ and judge the wicked.
The decisions are not arbitrary but are decided upon by the saints who love the lost. It is not out of revenge or anger but due to justice and righteousness.
What is wrong with "justice"? Is there anything wrong with sending a murderer to prison or even to death? If there is nothing wrong with man making that decision, there surely isn't anything wrong with God doing it.
Could you worship and love God if you found out that God does indeed destroy the wicked at the end?
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Permalink Reply by sky on
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At the time of the executive judgment at the end of the thousand years, "Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the surpremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspired Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. Says the Lord: 'Because you have set you heart as the heart of God, behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon you, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness. They shall bring you down to the pit. 'I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire... I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you... I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you... You shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8,16-19.
This statement is an inspired commentary upon Ezekiel 28. It clearly explains how God will bring Satan and his angels to the ground. The Lord will not interfere when the countless millions whom Satan had allured to rebellion will turn upon them.
It cannot be made more clear, can it?
sky
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What is wrong with a forceful God? A forceful God would make His creatures worship Him or obey Him even against their own will. But the truth is that a man convinced against his own will is of the same opinion still. If God were to use compelling power in this way with His creatures, Satan himself and all his followers would have ceazed to exist the moment they rebelled against God.
If God were to use force in order to win the controversy, Satan would be the winner and the stability of the universe of God would be jeopardized.
Ponder this statement:
"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or act contrary to our ideas." Desire of Ages, p.487, bottom of page.
If God had hurt or destroyed Satan because he did not appreciate His work and because he acted contrary to His ideas, He would have been like Satan himself.
By beholding we become changed. By beholding a forceful God, we become forceful ourselves and we become like the beast and its image.
sky
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Permalink Reply by giftson on
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i was also havin tis Q for a lng time i have ahope that we'll both ask tis Q to god when we reach heaven
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Permalink Reply by mark dave bermudez simyunn on
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For Me, I dont think God used 'Physical force' to overthrow lucifer.
God is spirit, though undeniably,He can change nto Physical being anytime He wants to.but the scriptures is clear that at those times..God is spirit..so when He fought lucifer and cast them down from heaven He didn't use Physical force. besides lucifer is spiritual too, How can physical force match match spiritual force?....
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mark, not sure what you mean by God is spirit... He is "spirit" but that does not mean that He does not have a body. In Daniel 7:9 God is spoken of as "the ancient of days" and His garment is said to be white as snow and the hair of His head as like pure wool.
God has a spiritual body the like of which the redeemed will have, immortal, incorruptible. The angels have a bodily form as well and they are excellent in strength.
In order to come to this earth and become one with the human family Christ had to relinquish His divine form (Phil.2:6). This He relinquished forever but the glories of the divine form He relinquish only for a while. The glories of the divine form are now upon His human form glorified and the redeemed will partake of this outward glory as well. Thus the redeemed will shine brighter than the angels who have never fell.
sky
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Permalink Reply by Bobby on
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God being spiritual has nothing to do with possessing force, and having to use it for the cause of good. The premise of your argument is wrong Mark. Angels are spirit beings too yet they use force when it is necessary. I get the impression by your argument that God having to use force will bring His character in disrepute.
Its never a question that God uses force any at all, but His motive for using it. If God had sat back and allowed Lucifer's actions to have run its course naturally, then what do you think would have happened? Correct! Chaos. Anarchy.
Besides, what is force if it isn't physical?
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Bob, did u not read the statement from The Desire of Ages which plainly stated that God did not use force to put down rebellion. Why do you think He did if He Himself declares through Mrs. White that He didn't! Are we to take your wisdom as being above inspiration? Just curious.
sky
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Thanks for your comment 4 Him. I often wonder why we need more proof when the Lord has spoken to us plainly as He did through Mrs. White in Desire of Ages, p.759 as to whether God uses forces to put down rebellion or not. I suppose the problem is that since we have been trained for many years or even from infancy to think along certain lines, it is difficult to abandon those very lines of thinking even when the Lord shows us different. This is how prejudice and opinion can get in the way of accepting light from Heaven. Mrs. White once said, "It is not how many years have I believed something that makes it the truth." She also stated that we, adventists, "have more to unlearn than to learn!" I believe this is true especially regarding the language of the Bible describing God's actions.
sky
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I notice you have given me a contextual quote. Give me a backdrop of what exactly she spoke about, and then we can take it further.
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Bobby, in the statement I referred you to taken from The Desire of Ages, p.759, we read that "Compelling power is found only under Satan's government." Desire of Ages, p.759.
We don't need any context whatsoever to explain the meaning of those words. It is a simple and clear statement of fact and it is always true for God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever!
sky
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