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This reminds me of when the great William Miller, who gave us Adventism, rejected the Sabbath, because of pressure from his peers:

At 2:45  "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created."

Well, here's what EGW says:

   "A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}

EGW and Doug Batchelor disagree. Created does not mean the same thing as begotten.

Doug Batchelor is a very good evangelist, and I've learned a lot from him, and will continue to benefit from his research on various topics, but the antichrist "..shall wear out the saints of the most High" Dan. 7:25.  Finally antichrist has worn out Adventists, and tricked us into drinking the wine of Babylon.  We agreed from the beginning of the SDA church in 1863, to never make a creed, because as soon as we do, God will have something new to teach us, and you can be sure it will disagree with our creed, and cause a division in our church.  God has to make fools of us again, like in 1844.

    "What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ." {FLB 111.2}

0:45 "God is past finding out." <---Very important disclaimer.

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rush4hire  get the explanation clearly....The pastor is not saying that jesus is not the begotten son of God. He says jesus indeed is begotten son of God but the begetting does not mean thats when he started existing. He was begotten of his own accepting to condescend from the form of God himself to human being flesh....If you believe that Jesus has no begining nor end then you are safe otherwise you would be wearing out the saints with a false message..''' that jesus started out when God begot him''' Thats not the starting point of jesus! and we cant find it.

the person who created this is so misguided that they are incapable of understanding simple biblical truths as presented here by the pastor. Ellen White is simple repeating what the bible said that Christ is the only begotten son of the father. The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is variously translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten." 

Faith of our fathers said:  "He was begotten of his own accepting to condescend from the form of God himself to human being flesh"

Where did you get that?  It doesn't say He was begotten of His own.  It says plainly, numerous times, He was begotten of His Father, who is God, Himself.  We have to stick with what inspiration plainly says, even if, and especially when, we don't understand it.

Psalms   2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Acts 13:33, Heb. 1:5, Heb. 5:5)

When was Jesus begotten?  This day.  Whatever that is.  I don't understand it.  "Ages of eternity past" is a human invention.  "Not begotten at all", is also a human invention.  That's why we can't make a creed.  Then we would be taking the mystery out of our religion, which really is impossible to do.  And we can just puff ourselves up and explain everything, or think we are able to explain everything.

If you have the attitude that we are God's chosen people, and we're right and they are wrong, well that's good.. for now.  But, eventually, you have to transition into the more advanced understanding that we also can be wrong, and it's critical that we maintain our ability to admit when we're wrong.

Pay attention now.  That's the one thing Lucifer couldn't do:

    "But such efforts as infinite love and wisdom only could devise, were made to convince him of his error.  .....  He nearly reached the decision to return, but pride forbade him. It was too great a sacrifice for one who had been so highly honored to confess that he had been in error, that his imaginings were false, and to yield to the authority which he had been working to prove unjust." {PP 39.1}

That's why in 1844 God started with a people who believed they were right, but it turned out they were wrong, and they were humbled by that experience, and when the church was formed in 1863 they covenanted to never, ever, ever make a creed, because as soon as we make a creed, God will have something new to teach us, and you can be sure it will destroy our creed, and cause a division in the church between those who can't let go of their creed and their pride, and those who will fall on the rock and be broken and learn to admit when they're wrong, and then be broken even more by the persecution from their own brethren, just like how Jones and Waggoner were persecuted, until finally they were disfellowshipped.  And Ellen White was exiled to Australia.

I believe if you want fellowship with Jones and Waggoner, and Ellen White, you have to be willing to be disfellowshipped by the creed power, which has, sadly, gained great influence in our church.

Doug Batchelor does profound job introducing people into Adventism, but he knows nothing about 1888.  Do a google or youtube search.  You find nothing useful.  The closest thing is this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4nZRcLV4wA

Here he says there was no official church action to reject the message.  Yes there was.  It was official church action that sent Ellen White to Australia.  Tragically, Doug Batchelour has too much faith in "official church action".  If you follow that, you will think "official church action" is infallible in the SDA church, and it certainly is not.

His arsenal of amazing facts is impressive, but ironically, and perhaps miraculously, the critical knowledge of the history of our church has been kept from him.  You'll have to get that elsewhere.  Perhaps such knowledge wouldn't have done him any good.  Perhaps it would have hindered him in his particular duty to God.  We all have to work out our own salvation, right?

I won't this time discuss whether Pastor Doug .B knows something about 1888 or not... My issue with your statement that He says Jesus is not begotten of the father is not yet exhausted....Moreover, you have construed my statement ''that He was begotten of his own accepting to condescend from the form of God himself to human being flesh...'' to mean that he begat himself. In the context earlier i said he indeed is the begotten of the father ,so how do you say i said he is begotten by himself.... That's not what this statement means...instead, it means of himself without being forced, yet in agreement with the father, he accepted to become human leaving his deity and becoming man. Thus at the time this agreement was hammered out, then was Christ begotten of the father...

Otherwise you will disagree with present truth that Jesus is God himself. and that He is the son of God, begotten of God...all are truth....and hope to adjust that you believed a lie and then you will accept new truth and forgo what you previously held because you wish to compare with events of 1844 etc...be careful ! 

Stick to truth...Pastor DB.says Jesus is the begotten son of God...only he warns us not to think he is less God because he is son of God. 

EGW says this:

All men have been bought with this infinite price. By pouring the whole treasury of heaven into this world, by giving us in Christ all heaven, God has purchased the will, the affections, the mind, the soul, of every human being. Whether believers or unbelievers, all men are the Lord’s property. All are called to do service for Him, and for the manner in which they have met this claim, all will be required to render an account at the great judgment day. {COL 326.1}

So to me whatever the word means, God gave everything He had there was nothing more He could do.

Right.  And it seems the Holy Spirit will impress upon all our accountability to what God has given us.

Luke  19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 

19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:  

  • EGW:     "Thus men excuse their neglect of God's gifts. They look upon God as severe and tyrannical, as watching to spy out their mistakes and visit them with judgments. They charge Him with demanding what He has never given, with reaping where He has not sown. {COL 362.2}
  • ....
    The master does not deny the charge of the wicked servant, unjust as it is; but taking him on his own ground he shows that his conduct is without excuse. Ways and means had been provided whereby the talent might have been improved to the owner's profit...... {COL 362.4}

So, God could be an austere man, for all we know.  God could be a Trinity.  He could be a flying spaghetti monster.  What's more important than what we know about God, is that we have a job to do, and resources to work with.

On the other hand, to be "thoroughly furnished unto all good works", requires we have all scripture at our disposal, (2 Tim. 3:16).  But, if you are bound to a human creed, that will not be the case.  That creed will disagree with some Scripture, and you will only be partially furnished, and at a severe disadvantage.

True rush4hire. So what do you see as a creed that hinders us from freely study the Bible as we should?

Like Luke 12:1 "...Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

    "How often our service to Christ, our communion with one another, is marred by the secret desire to exalt self! How ready the thought of self-gratulation, and the longing for human approval! It is the love of self, the desire for an easier way than God has appointed that leads to the substitution of human theories and traditions for the divine precepts. To His own disciples the warning words of Christ are spoken, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."" {DA 409.2}

    "For years a degree of pharisaism has been springing up among us, which has separated some from the Bible standard. If the preconceived ideas of those actuated by this spirit are crossed, they immediately assume a controversial, combative attitude, as a man puts on armor when preparing for battle. Much pride and loftiness, and a spirit which desires to rule, has been manifested; but very little of the spirit which leads men to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of him, has been shown. Human inventions and human plans are eclipsing sacred things, and excluding divine instruction. Men are taking the place of God by seeking to assume authority over their fellow men. But they rule without a vestige of the authority of God, which alone can make their ruling a healthful element; and others are becoming leavened by this wrong influence." {PH080 10.2}

I appreciate how these high profile preachers can function in ignorance of these warnings, but I can't do it.  Different disciples have different paths, I guess.

John  21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Peace 

Brother Rush, how have you been? Hope all is well.  I looked over what you brought forth.. I think it's a misunderstanding on your part.. brother F.o.o. fathers seems to be on point.. Pastor Doug is not saying the things you say, let me show you..

Go to the time of 1:08 of the video, he says ".. some read the verses where it talks about Jesus is the only begotten Son, and they think, well... that means there was a time in the remote recesses of eternity when Jesus was brought forth, that GOD Father created Him somehow..."

He's talking about what other people think...  

 Also go to 2:18 of the video, he says, " Some are going to parse and argue with the words and say well... Jesus was not made, He was begotten and He came out of the Father.. and they try to make an argument with semantics, but the facts is, IF there was a time when Christ Jesus did not exist and through some act of the Father He was brought forth, He was created..."

Pastor Doug is just pointing to those people that believe begotten means Jesus was brought forth and came out of the Father.. Pastor Doug is saying to believe this false notion is equal to saying Jesus was created.

 Again, if a person believes begotten means Jesus was brought forth and came out of the Father, then in fact that means that person can't change the words and say begotten is different from created. 

  At 2:45 "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created."

  Pastor Doug said this base on other people's beliefs... He doesn't actually believe when it comes to Jesus, that begotten means created. He's saying only if a person believes begotten means that Jesus was brought forth and came out of the Father, then that person  "..can't change the words and say begotten is different from created.". You understand my brother? 

Blessings! 

John  8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.   

16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.  

I already quoted EGW saying "created" is not the same thing as "begotten".

I already quoted the 4 verses: "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Ps. 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5; Heb. 5:5.

David Asscherick teaches that God did not give His son, because that would be child sacrifice.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a3K6L9a9as

I'm telling you, God has made fools of us all, just like in 1844. Ellen White had to be smashed in her face at age 8, then suffer severe health problems when older, all to keep her humble.  So, I believe God has to humble us twice.  In 1844 and again today.  And what can be more humbling than being deceived into making the wine of Babylon a test of fellowship? 

Jeremiah tried to convince everyone that God wanted them to go to Babylon voluntarily, but his king, Zedikiah was a slave to popular opinion, saying we don't need to be chastised.  Korah said the same thing.

Jones and Waggoner were disfellowshipped by the bigotry that was developing, even then.  It's worse now, so we also have to face the wrath of bigotry today, if we want to take up where they left off.

Peace 

My brother, you expressed many things, but I will stick to the subject. Thank you. 

 I agree with the Bible verses you gave... can we agree that it's not saying Jesus was created or came into existence at any particular time? 

  If we agree on that, then that is exactly what pastor Doug teaches... Your saying he's teaching that begotten means to be created when it comes to Jesus. 

Rush posted : "At 2:45 "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created.""

 

Rush wrote: "I already quoted EGW saying "created" is not the same thing as "begotten"."

  I'm not trying to be funny when I say this, but breathe, take a deep breath... Just try to understand what I'm explaining to you.

 When Doug B. said "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created.", that statement is base on other people saying Jesus was begotten in the sense that He came into existence at some point in time. They teach that Jesus being begotten is not being created but coming into existence. 

 To sum it up, Doug B. is saying these people are playing word games, because coming into existence means Jesus wasn't there at one point in time, and now He exists, That's creation. Pastor Doug says "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created.", but that is if a person believes that false view. 


 go to 2:18 of the video, he (Doug B.) says, " Some are going to parse and argue with the words and say well... Jesus was not made, He was begotten and He came out of the Father.. and they try to make an argument with semantics, but the facts is, IF there was a time when Christ Jesus did not exist and through some act of the Father He was brought forth, He was created..."

 Brother Rush, if you took time to read other things pastor Doug wrote on this subject, then you would clearly see he doesn't teach begotten means being created when it come to Jesus. This is what I found in a 2 minute search.. 

Pastor Doug B. wrote: "Another group questions whether Jesus actually possesses all the characteristics of the Eternal God. They stem from Arius, a 4th century Alexandrian priest, who had a different take on God. He taught that prior to making anything else, God created a son who was neither equal to, nor coeternal with, the Father. According to this idea, called Arianism, Jesus Christ is a supernatural creature, but He is neither fully human nor fully divine. Still others embrace a more immature version of this doctrine, holding that back in the dawn of time, God the Father had some form of cosmic intimate relations with the Holy Spirit and Jesus was the product. They reason, “How else can you call Him the Son?”

However, these concepts are totally contrary to the teaching of the New Testament in which Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator and not a created being (John 1:1–4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus..." This is from his book called Trinity 

 

 Look, he said Jesus was not created... So that means he can't believe when it comes to Jesus, that begotten means being created. Your just misunderstanding the context of his statement, and you are now bearing false witness on Doug B. If you see your error, I think you owe pastor Doug an apology, and should redact this post... but hey that's just my opinion. 

Blessings! 

I've said God has made fools of all of us, to humble us, to save us.  Why would I apologize to all of us for sharing what I know?   God would be the one apologizing.  Then he'll apologize to Ahab's 400 prophets for giving them a lying spirit to make fools of them, (1 Kings 22:23).  I'm not singling Doug Batchelor out.  We are all in the same boat.

  •      "The Bible has little to say in praise of men. Little space is given to recounting the virtues of even the best men who have ever lived. This silence is not without purpose; it is not without a lesson. All the good qualities that men possess are the gift of God; their good deeds are performed by the grace of God through Christ....-it is a perilous thing to praise or exalt men; for if one comes to lose sight of his entire dependence on God, and to trust to his own strength, he is sure to fall. .................................. and whatever diverts the mind from God, whatever leads to self-exaltation or to self-dependence, is surely preparing the way for our overthrow. The tenor of the Bible is to inculcate distrust of human power and to encourage trust in divine power. {PP 717.1}

Our leaders chose the Pope's definition of God, instead of the Bible's, just recently, due to pressure from Babylon.  Doug Batchelor is ignorant of all this.  He is also not aware that Roger Morneau is a pathological liar.  And, I suppose such awareness would not help him in the job that he has to do.  I'm not criticizing him, or anyone.  But, the next generation has to have a better awareness, and has to get the errors out of our church, and send this Trojan horse back to Babylon from whence it came.

Doug Batchelour also has the Catholic version of what Arius believed.

I've said it before, if Jesus is speaking through a closed door, that means you have to overcome prejudice.

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