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This reminds me of when the great William Miller, who gave us Adventism, rejected the Sabbath, because of pressure from his peers:

At 2:45  "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created."

Well, here's what EGW says:

   "A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}

EGW and Doug Batchelor disagree. Created does not mean the same thing as begotten.

Doug Batchelor is a very good evangelist, and I've learned a lot from him, and will continue to benefit from his research on various topics, but the antichrist "..shall wear out the saints of the most High" Dan. 7:25.  Finally antichrist has worn out Adventists, and tricked us into drinking the wine of Babylon.  We agreed from the beginning of the SDA church in 1863, to never make a creed, because as soon as we do, God will have something new to teach us, and you can be sure it will disagree with our creed, and cause a division in our church.  God has to make fools of us again, like in 1844.

    "What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ." {FLB 111.2}

0:45 "God is past finding out." <---Very important disclaimer.

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Peace 

Really, your not singling Pastor Doug out? 

 With all due respect, I mean the title of your post is "Doug Batchelor says Jesus was not begotten !".... with an exclamation point too.. Well, that's a lie bro. 

Blessings! 

Peace 

Rush wrote: " But, the next generation has to have a better awareness, and has to get the errors out of our church, and send this Trojan horse back to Babylon from whence it came."

  I totally agree with you my brother, however, what you're saying about Doug B., in that he doesn't believe "..Jesus was not begotten!". That is not true, I don't know if you came up with that on your own, or you got it from someone else, nevertheless, it's false, untrue, unfortunately, it's a lie. You don't want to promote that do you? 

 Doug B. doesn't teach Jesus was not the begotten Son of GOD like you say, He teaches Jesus is the begotten Son of GOD. Again, you took the statement you posted to prove your point and put it out of context. 

 Again, when you write, "Doug Batchelor says Jesus was not begotten!"..  that =  a falsehood. 

 Blessings! 

Doug B., like many others, doesn't realize the Trinity is the wine of Babylon.  It's hard to imagine that God would let such an error become so popular.  But God always lets error become popular.  How are we going to deal with the phenomena of Sunday becoming popular, if we can't study how the Trinity became popular in our own microcosm?

The Catholic church has declared the Trinity to be at the core of it's teachings.  That's because it invokes fanaticism, which is like a stimulating drug.  Fanaticism and confusion is what Babylon is all about.  But, God is not the author of confusion.  No inspired statement has ever said the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one God.  That comes from the pagan teaching that "all gods are one god".  In this belief, whatever god anyone worships, they are worshiping the true God, as long as they recognize they are all one god.

As James White puts it:  

  •     "Jesus prayed that his disciples might be one as he was one with his Father. This prayer did not contemplate one disciple with twelve heads, but twelve disciples, made one in object and effort in the cause of their master. Neither are the Father and the Son parts of the "three-one God." They are two distinct beings, yet one in the design and accomplishment of redemption." {1868 JW, LIFIN 343.2} 

We can recognize God's grace in winking at ignorance.

Martin Luther called people boneheads for bothering him about the Sabbath and baptism.

William Miller was pressured by his peers to raise his voice against the Sabbath.

Kellogg taught pantheism and Trinitarianism, for which he was rebuked by EGW, trying to confuse the personality of God.

Jones and Waggoner were disfellowshipped for following Kellogg.  I think they were perplexed that their message was slighted by good Adventists.  How do you process that?

We can only process so much.  There are a lot of things I need to change about myself, that God keeps from me, because I'm focusing on something else right now.

Charles Beecher never became an Adventist, I suppose because he was focused on the cause of Emancipation.

Doug B. Does a most excellent job dealing with things that he specializes in.  I was really impressed with this one:

Take it easy Rush4hire...Go slow and allow the spirit to teach you one step at a time

rush4hire wrote, "It's hard to imagine that God would let such an error become so popular."

God did not "let" the concept of 3 Persons of the Godhead become popular, He actively promoted and introduced it into the SDA Church.

Ellen White was inspired to write The Desire of Ages which was published in 1898 and caused a major shift within Adventist thinking. At the very beginning of the book, in the first paragraph, she wrote, “From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father” and then went on to say, “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived.” With those simple phrases she continued to rebut both Arian and Semi-Arian teaching within the church – just as in 1895 when she described Christ as being “one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

In The Desire of Ages she also gave a simple trinitarian statement, “Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power.”

Having established the equality of the Father and Christ she then added the Holy Spirit as the “Third Person of the Godhead”. In unequivocal terms she affirmed a Godhead of Three Persons.

This is not the Roman Catholic trinity doctrine but rather it is the SDA concept of three Persons in the Godhead, a concept that has been understood since the time of the Apostles. 

There was a progression of truth within SDAism regarding the Godhead. This is reflected in James White’s statements as he (and the denomination) moved to a more trinitarian position. In 1846 James White referred to “the old unscriptural trinitarian creed, viz, that Jesus is the eternal God” yet the first church hymn book compiled by James White three years later contains the doxology, “Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.” While James White was opposed to the doctrine of the trinity as expressed by other denominations, he did not believe that Christ was inferior to the Father and was able to encourage congregations to sing praises to a Godhead defined as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

In 1876 he wrote that, “The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here.” A year later, in 1877, James White’s aversion to trinitarianism had softened further as he saw that the alternative, Unitarianism, was a worse position. He wrote, “The inexplicable trinity that makes the godhead three in one and one in three, is bad enough; but the ultra Unitarianism that makes Christ inferior to the Father is worse.”

Arthur White, grandson of James White, noted that while his grandfather rejected the doctrine of the Trinity as espoused by other denominations, he did believe in the three great powers in heaven.

Unfortunately there has been a cyclic trend over the decades to present a false history of the Godhead doctrine in SDAism and the result of this has been, as Ellen White predicted, to make the testimonies of no effect. The SDA doctrine of 3 Persons of the Godhead was established by Ellen White so rejection of that doctrine necessitates rejection of Ellen White as God's messenger.

Peace 

 Hold on, wait a minute... time out brother Rush, The topic is "Doug Batchelor says Jesus was not begotten!"

  This post shouldn't have even been created, because Doug B. doesn't teach nor did he say Jesus was not begotten. That is false my brother. 

Brother Rush, it's plenty of post on the trinity, probably you started half of them, so no need to change the subject here when you can post on one other post talking about the trinity. Thank you. 

Blessings! 

This is a recent development, worthy of note.  Our pioneers never used the word "Trinity" in a favorable way.  They knew what it meant, that it was one god, composed of 3 parts, and it comes totally from Rome, and not from the Bible, and that Rome perverts everything.  They don't get anything right.  Ellen White never uses the word one single time, or the word "triune", either.

So, when leaders start modernizing their Adventism, and try to come as close to other beliefs as possible, they need to be careful.  The great Arthur Maxwell was even hypnotized when he attended the Vatican II council in 1962.  He called the Pope "His Holiness" in a Signs article.  It's easy to go too far.

That's why I'm playing it safe, and learning my Adventism from what has been established in the first 50 years of Adventism.  Anything established after that is not the faith once delivered to the saints.

I will make an article about David Asscherick saying that God did not give His son, but that God gave Himself on the cross.  So, get ready to defend him, too, along with every other "hick-up" caused by this fanaticism.  I'm just pointing out the results of letting such seemingly innocent sentiments come into our church.   If such things are harmless, EGW wouldn't have said such mean things to Dr. Kellogg, and called his sentiments "the Alpha of apostasy".

  • "You are not definitely clear on the personality of God, which is everything to us as a people. You have virtually destroyed the Lord God Himself. Lt300-1903.7

you have exposed yourself by saying that you are not open to leaning anything new. for you there is no new light on the word of God. You only want what was established in the first 50 years of Adventism. 

i won't quote Ellen White showing how ignorant a statement this is and the backwardness of this sentiment.

but i will provide a quote to thwart the creation of  that article about David Asscherick: 

The angels suffered with Christ. God Himself was crucified with Christ; for Christ was one with the Father. Those who reject Christ, those who will not have this man to rule over them, choose to place themselves under the rule of Satan, to do his work as his bondslaves. Yet for them Christ yielded up His life on Calvary (The Bible Echo, August 6, 1894). {5BC 1108.5}

Rush, it's true that the Pioneers did not use the word "trinity" but if you look at EGW writings you will find the word "Godhead" more than 400 times. Godhead and Trinity are very close to the same thing.

Seems to me you are making yourself a disservice by not accepting anything new. I am sure you have heard the term "Present Truth" EGW used it a lot and to me, it means there are always new things to learn. 

Peace 

 That's not a recent development brother Rush... Anyway, it's amazing how your totally ignoring your original post... You know, the one that your bearing false witness against brother Doug B.  Now you want to make this post a trinity post... Smh

  blessings! 

Peace 

 Rush wrote & title of the post: "Doug Batchelor says Jesus was not begotten!"

Rush wrote: "  2:45 "you can't change the words and say begotten is different from created."


 Rush wrote: "Well, here's what EGW says:"


"A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}


Rush wrote: "EGW and Doug Batchelor disagree. Created does not mean the same thing as begotten."

  Doug B. believes the same thing EGW wrote in the quote you gave brother Rush. You have made this whole thing up, it's not true that "Doug Batchelor says Jesus was not begotten!". You can't bear false witness on people, that's not right. It's ok, I understand you misunderstood the context in which Doug B. made that statement, but you have to acknowledge it and have to move forward.

 Blessings!  

 

JohnB said: In 1876 he wrote that, “The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here.”

I want to see what he said immediately after this statement.  I can't find it in the software.  I only found it taken out of context in online articles.  It was supposed to be from "The Review and Herald, October 12, 1876".  But I cannot find the article or the archives.  This one seems to be only EGW's R&H articles.  No Oct. 12, 1876.

But, I still never said anything about Christ's divine nature, or the Holy Spirit.  I never said the Holy Spirit was actually Jesus, or an impersonal force, and not a 3rd person.  I never denied the 3 persons of the Godhead.  

But, what do you know,  JohnB?  Do you know:

  1. We have to fall on the rock and be broken and confess that we are wretched, poor, miserable, blind, and naked, and that if we don't, Jesus will say:    "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."  (John 9:41)?
  2. That my mission is to provide evidence that what Jesus said is true, in order to facilitate our repentance?
  3. Ellen White never one time use words like "Trinity" or "Triune"?
  4. J.N. Andrews calls the Trinity the wine of Babylon, because it comes from Babylon, and destroys the personality of God and Jesus, and people were punished by the Catholic church for denying the teaching?
  5. Andrews and Jones and Waggoner all point out that thousands have been murdered, fined and imprisoned for rejecting this fanaticism? 
  6. The current SDA creed calls the Trinity "He", and "Him"?  Do you agree with them?  Do you refer to the Trinity as one person?
  7. I've never said the Holy Spirit is Jesus and not another person, or said the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force or denied the 3rd person of the Godhead?
  8. I've never said Jesus was created at some point in ages of eternity past?
  9. I've quoted "This day I have begotten you", and I admit that I don't even know what that means?

Can you acknowledge what I've listed so far?

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