In the last year or 2 (jus my experience) I've seen a lot of drums used in the church for praise teams, and well pretty much anything else involving music. I have yet to see drums mentioned in the Bible. I've heard that instrument isn't mentioned there. I'm not sure but I believe Ellen White saw drums entering the church eventually too and wrote about that altho I couldn't find where right now. And I kno theres cultures out there who use them to summon spirits.. soo...yeah... lol. But does anyone else know anything around all this? Whats your take on it?
UPDATE (10/10 & 14/11): Over time I have learned a lot over the study of the Bible and SOP concerning the use of drums in the church. I don't want to make this reading extra long so I'll share some studies I have written it, with Scripture and SOP, as well as other sources with much even scientific evidence. God bless in your studies, and may we make the right decision.
MUSIC & THE 3 ANGELS MESSAGES -Fitzroy Anderson
SONIC WARFARE -Ivor Myers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gycnjC9R0XY | 1 (find this one, you find them all)
HEAVENLY MUSIC STARTING NOW
APPLAUSE, HAND WAIVING, DRUMMING, & DANCING IN THE CHURCH -Dr. Pipim
THE BEAST FROM THE ABYSS -Ivor Myers
https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/1163/the-beas... (please see also the other 3 connecting sermons located right below the player. Can't miss it)
Music seminar segment in THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES
http://youtu.be/a56TGXoRWqY (Music and the Great Controversy)
http://youtu.be/EYXSwtcWrTU (Patterns from Music)
http://youtu.be/PH8U9yxRgVs (Satan's Musical church)
http://youtu.be/kU1cNcyjW2o (Music and the Emerging Church)
DRUMS, ROCK, AND WORSHIP
Some of my own studies
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113374262012937/ <-- A growing group of SDA Youth on Facebook against secular music in our church.
Dwayne Lemon Testimony <-- hitting real close to home, maybe even there, actually..
Please friends, no more "I think", "I feel" answers. Lets study it out. I understand there will be disagreement, I've seen this in my journey to get an answer. We are Seventh-Day Adventists who seek citizenship in heaven! ...however :) That comes first, and heaven should be our culture. Lets be honest, sincere, and willing to look at the evidence. These are, after all, well learned Seventh-Day Adventists, who base what they will share on Scripture. After all, we too need to remember who we are.
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. - Proverbs 18:13 KJV
Seminar: Music-Dwayne Lemon
History repeats itself:
God's Instruction on Music:
Music, the Sanctuary, and the Judgement:
Dean, grace and peace.
For four years, we (our band) practiced for 4-6 hours a day 3-4 days a week and had 1-3 live performances every week. When I wasn't directly involved with my band, I was working in a night club (which had two stages on which were regularly bands performing). My extensive experience merits more than just my singing experience.
I have no objections to your view that to surround yourself with people who are in darkness is detrimentally damaging to your spiritual health, but that is not the issue here. In fact (knowing what I know now it is difficult to say this)
my time as a musician was one of the best and happiest times of my life, and some of the people that I frequented with (in and out of my band) could teach us a lot about love and respect.
Now I wish not to take away, nor add to your experience, so please, do not try to add to mine. If your relationships were bad, ok. Mine were not. We split up because of lack of proffesionalism, caused by iresponsible drug use (as if there was responible drug us).
If you think that my expeience does not merit me commenting on the effects of drums, thats your choice.
Again, YOU had so much joy expressing the worship style that YOU so loved. The pattern repeats. I wonder if Cain was proud of his offering, showing the best of his produce from the garden that he loved to tend to? Perhaps he even spent a whole day or two decorating it with a lovely flower arrangement, hardly containing his joy, thinking that God would share his sentiments ?!
Just a thought.
Hi Dean, I could not help but notice you said:
"I had so much joy in expressing worship in a style that I loved".
What about the style that God loves? Is your worship for you, or for God?
You mentioned the group to be a christian metal band. Have you considered what the tempo of that music, the rhythms, the amplification of that sound does to your mind?
You also said:
"So I disagree it's not the music or the drums its the spirit and fellowband mates as well as their character at least in experience"
If everyone is doing something they like, their fellowship is going to go well in most cases. Happens all the time in secular music, so is it good enough then?
Note, that I am not doubting your sincerety. What I'm trying to do is help you think passed what you feel is good, and try to understand the effects of the way drums are being used 99.9% of the time or more.
Help me understand the difference between secular metal, and "christian" metal, please. I think I'm not going to have enough time to edit what I want to show you into this reply, but I will add it below if not here.
Sorry, ran out of time, could not include it in my last reply. This short video is in Spanish, I apologize that it may not be understood, at least the portions of the interview. Please ask me though what they are saying if any doubt, because that too, is VERY REVEALING. However, my point is not words, rather, music, its effects, and its own culture that overrides wherever we were born btw.
What do you think of the scene this metal music creates? Acceptable to God?
.... and yes, these are Seventh-Day Adventists...
You are right Dean. I sang in a band, DJ-ed, was a Tour Manager, and worked for RCA and Tamla Motown. I have spent time in recording studios in Jamaica and "followed the sounds" both in Europe and the Caribbean. My wife is a trained singer, a brother-in-law is a professional singer and my oldest son has just been signed as a music producer.
I have spent time with sufis and been to "pocomania" churches (a sort of Jamaican voodoo... of sorts) and experienced the use of drums in charismatic churches.
From all this wealth of experience I have gleaned one thing... the drum-kit in church means dance music and has the same effect that the same beats have in the dancehall.
Yes, I do see things in a different light and it concerns me that those playing the drums in church seem to be totally oblivious as to what they are doing when they adopt the worldly style to play worship music.
Personally, I think there should be an immediate and obvious difference between sacred and worldly music - but as soon as drums are brought in there is no difference.
Non-musicians, in the main, seem to just accept the use that drums are put to - perhaps I should say that they accept the use the drummers put them to - but many musicians seem to understand more what the effect of the beats are.
Friend, that is your opinion based on the information you know now. That is all. You can either settle with that, or you can continue researching. I'm neither the fastest nor slowest learning, it took me some months or years actually to know what I know now. Then again, I also didn't settle for what I thought, which is what I was doing when my responses sounded much like the one you just started off with :/
All instruments do not have the same origin. I'm sure angels did not wait on the seed of cain to get their harps. Am I wrong?
Stop talking about the beat of the drum? Friend, I pray you're not serious. This portion of your reply is very revealing. Please think about that.
Soft melodious music, you know, one could drop the tempo of the beat to below a certain point it can actually cause something like depression. Please assume not that both sides have not been considered. You know what happens when people assume. However, subdued, melodious music is what OURS as Seventh-Day Adventists needs to sound like. If you believe in the Testimony of Jesus, that is.
More assuming on your part Charlie, I never claimed a list of instruments for the sanctuary. In case you did not know, there weren't any at all in there. As a matter of fact, only one person was allowed inside, remember? I have made no list for that place. I connected drums to the arc of the covenant once because something very real took place when the two met.
It seems you have your mind made up, then. You are free to believe what you wish, but nothing I've said is inconsistent, as you claim, and nothing at all has been proven false. Does that mean I'm never wrong? Of course not, I've been wrong before, but in this case, not you, or any other in favor of drums has specifically shown error in anything I've shared so far. Believe what you will.
As you've made up your mind, there may not be much more to be said between the two of us. I do hope to see you in heaven, where I'm sure we'll both learn more than what we currently do now and adjust accordingly.
Hmm... still seems to come down to the argument that because the organ piano are not mentioned in the Bible as being played in worship it is therefore permissable to play drums in church.
This is a non-argument and only serves to distract from the topic of this thread. There is no logic whatsoever to the theory that as we play other instruments in church so the contemporary-style playing of drums is acceptable to God.
Furthermore, if one disagrees with the fruits of another's study then present a logical, Biblical, refutation. Present the fruits of your own study. To say that you won't accept the results of another's research purely on the basis that you don't agree with the conclusions they came to is no rebuttal. Rather it is a sign of intransigence and indicates a refusal to honestly explore the subject.
This attitude appears to reign through much of this thread whilst honest objections are ignored. For example, why, when drums are brought into the church, is it almost always a drum-kit being played in the rock/dance style?
We have a myriad of styles to choose from, so why choose the style that is most likely to distract from worship?
Either everything is permissable if it is not specifically mentioned as not being acceptable or we apply principle and prayerfully determine the matter that way.
JB asked "For example, why, when drums are brought into the church, is it almost always a drum-kit being played in the rock/dance style?
Seems like we going around in circles JB because the drum is abused does that mean it's unacceptable. It's this kind of logic and thinking that has people confused. What style is the organ and piano played in at church? Is your beef with the fact that many choose to play the drum in a rock/dance way? If that is the case then its not the drum that is at fault but the drummer.
The onus is not on me to present a study to prove why drum is acceptable in the church. My job is to look at the information put forward and decide whether or not the info is correct and wholesome. I did not start the discussion but statements were made and I challenged them and rebuffed them, using the same logic and same scripture that the originator of the discussion used. You cannot throw out the baby with the bath water and if you in for a penny you are in for a pound and what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.
And I think its quite rude and offensive to conclude that because one does not agree with your sentiments then one is not honest in exploring the subject. As I stated before, it seems that once certain people make a statement on AO then its the absolute truth and woe be unto anyone who may disagree. But hey this is a forum to discuss, reason agree and disagree and no one quarter has a monopoly on truth. We all have our own understanding of what truth is. Bless up
Yes everyone can choose their own understanding of what Truth is, but that still does not change what Truth IS. Truth has a monopoly on Truth. Offensive is to argue and disagree but without valid reason or evidence or anything substancial to back up you argument.
If someone has made a statement on AO, it matters not who they are. What matters is, is it true?
The evidence presented is reasonable, logical and sound that the "trap set" was designed for a purpose, and that purpose does not honor God. Yes I can play differently, but an AK47, which was designed to kill and take life, tell me, if I just aim to scare people, would that be ok ????
Such examples (AK47) are just foolish, like trying to argue the case of a piano against the drum.
So, have you exploited the subject? You have made no comments against the links, testimonies and scientific evidence provided, for ALL to view. What conclusion do you expect anyone to come to??? But you are offended ??? How old are you ?
You assume that the statement are true you assume that the case is made you believe it to be true in your eyes and your reasoning. People can conclude whatever they wish and I am old enough to be able to think and reasoned for myself. The same AK47 that was designed to kill is the same AK47 that can be used to defend against an enemy. The same knife that is used to terrorise a neighbourhood infested with knife crime is the same knife I use to peel my oranges. Again abuse of a product does not negate its positive use. I also noted that the sons of Cain did not invent the harp and organ to honour God. Instrument are instruments the can bring honour or dishonour to God. Now that is reasonable, logical and sound.
That is not reasonable, logical and sound, it is not even addressing the issue at hand.
Refute the evidence provided, if you can ! If you cannot, then your only point is your unwillingness to learn, bringing invalid arguments to substantiate a point, that drums CAN be used for good, but really, in reality,they are not. It is another subtle injection of distraction brought in by our enemy to mislead and guide us away from God, and YOU, are buying into the deception, and justifying it to ok, with examples such as AK47s and Knives.
Scott my friend what exactly do you want me to refute? Do you want me to refute that drums has a pagan origin, or that drums are used in voodoo rituals, or that drums are used to hypnotise us with with its rhythmic pattern, that it makes us move our bodies in an ungodly fashion, that it is a very loud instrument that can distract from the words of the songs, that the trap set was created to play rock music or that it was not used in the sanctuary. You got me I cant refute any of the above?
But I still hold to the point that other accepted worship instruments fail on the above list. And if you dispute that maybe you are one who is unwilling to apply the principles you adapt fro the drums to other instruments.
And now I cant even peel my orange with a knife because a knife is used to stab people. If you don't think my response addresses the issues then maybe we are just going around in circles. Because unless I agree with that drums are out and organ is in then in your eyes I am unwilling to learn. Seems a lot like the line I get from the Sunday keeping friends, I am unwilling to learn that we are no longer under the law but under grace.