In the last year or 2 (jus my experience) I've seen a lot of drums used in the church for praise teams, and well pretty much anything else involving music. I have yet to see drums mentioned in the Bible. I've heard that instrument isn't mentioned there. I'm not sure but I believe Ellen White saw drums entering the church eventually too and wrote about that altho I couldn't find where right now. And I kno theres cultures out there who use them to summon spirits.. soo...yeah... lol. But does anyone else know anything around all this? Whats your take on it?
UPDATE (10/10 & 14/11): Over time I have learned a lot over the study of the Bible and SOP concerning the use of drums in the church. I don't want to make this reading extra long so I'll share some studies I have written it, with Scripture and SOP, as well as other sources with much even scientific evidence. God bless in your studies, and may we make the right decision.
MUSIC & THE 3 ANGELS MESSAGES -Fitzroy Anderson
SONIC WARFARE -Ivor Myers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gycnjC9R0XY | 1 (find this one, you find them all)
HEAVENLY MUSIC STARTING NOW
APPLAUSE, HAND WAIVING, DRUMMING, & DANCING IN THE CHURCH -Dr. Pipim
THE BEAST FROM THE ABYSS -Ivor Myers
https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/1163/the-beas... (please see also the other 3 connecting sermons located right below the player. Can't miss it)
Music seminar segment in THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES
http://youtu.be/a56TGXoRWqY (Music and the Great Controversy)
http://youtu.be/EYXSwtcWrTU (Patterns from Music)
http://youtu.be/PH8U9yxRgVs (Satan's Musical church)
http://youtu.be/kU1cNcyjW2o (Music and the Emerging Church)
DRUMS, ROCK, AND WORSHIP
Some of my own studies
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113374262012937/ <-- A growing group of SDA Youth on Facebook against secular music in our church.
Dwayne Lemon Testimony <-- hitting real close to home, maybe even there, actually..
Please friends, no more "I think", "I feel" answers. Lets study it out. I understand there will be disagreement, I've seen this in my journey to get an answer. We are Seventh-Day Adventists who seek citizenship in heaven! ...however :) That comes first, and heaven should be our culture. Lets be honest, sincere, and willing to look at the evidence. These are, after all, well learned Seventh-Day Adventists, who base what they will share on Scripture. After all, we too need to remember who we are.
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. - Proverbs 18:13 KJV
Seminar: Music-Dwayne Lemon
History repeats itself:
God's Instruction on Music:
Music, the Sanctuary, and the Judgement:
Charliebwoyo, (nothing personal, just find myself responding to you)
Look at the list that you say you agree with. I understand and agree with everything that you've listed but then you went and blew the argument with the last paragraph.
The only argument that you seem to be presenting for using drums is that pianos and organs can be abused as well.
Scott's AK47 example was, IMHO, a very good example. It is designed for one purpose - to be a cheap weapon. As a weapon it's sole purpose is to damage whatever it is fired at. Doesn't matter whether you are using it in offence or defence, it still has the same purpose and that will never change. From the time that you pick the AK up the only purpose that it can achieve is to damage the person that it is pointed at.
Drum-kit was designed solely to provide a driving dance beat. That's it. It has no other purpose. If you want to just have a time-keeper or to emphasise certain changes in worship there are even other drums or cymbals that could be used for that. Yet very rarely is any other form of drum introduced into the church other than the drum-kit - which was designed for... etc. One can "baptise" it into the church and claim that it is now used for a "holy" use but, to me, it is like firing an AK into the air as a part of worship and claiming that it is acceptable because now it is discharged in worship rather than in anger. Either way, it still ruins the ceiling and damages the church.
Remember the topic is "Drums in the church" - and as the only drums that are used in the church are (99% of the time) the drum-kit, that's why we're focussed on the drum-kit as opposed to melodic instruments which serve a different purpose
Charliebwoyo, you said, "And I think its quite rude and offensive to conclude that because one does not agree with your sentiments then one is not honest in exploring the subject."
If you can show me where I came to that conclusion then I will apologise. I never intended to say such a thing, so either I have expressed myself poorly or you are seeing things that are not there. I think it is is the latter and that it is a cheap shot - but maybe that's my ego's wishful thinking, so please prove me wrong and point me to where I expressed that thought, thanks.
The reason why we are going around in circles is because you, like so many others, completely ignore my question. I accepted a long time ago in this discussion that it is not the instrument that is at fault, it is the player - why do you need to return to that instead of just answering the question? My question is, and remains, why is it played in the rock/dance style 99% of the time?
Now, you are responding to my question yet you do not even attempt to answer it in your response. Why not? You talk about pianos, organs, babies, bathwater, pennies and pounds yet not once have you even attempted to answer my question.
Further you say that because the drum is abused it doesn't make it unacceptable. Really? When the only style that people play the drum-kit in is the rock/dance style you don't find that unacceptable for worship? Ok, that's your view. Mine is different. When I came into the SDA church I was told that I had to ditch my dance music because it is not the music for a consecrated heart. Now, when I express the view that dance beats are unacceptable in corporate worship I'm told I am wrong, yet, strangely, no-one is able to tell me why or how I am wrong.
So... here's your chance on the forum, you can express your view, but do me the favour and give me some reason for your view? So far the only argument that I see you present is that drums are ok because we play pianos and organs in church. I expected a reasoned argument not one of emotion.
I suggest that the reason that my question is being ignored (and not just on this forum, I have asked the question to Conference and Union officials as well) is because no-one can answer it. Actually, I believe that I know very well why we only have this style in church but I'm not going to voice it as I don't want to influence anyone's response.
So, to prevent the spinning circles - why not try answering the question rather than just talking about the fact that I've asked a question?
JB I am not a drummer I do not play any musical instrument and so I cannot tell you why the drum is played in rock/dance manner 99% of the time. I can only assume that you think it is so because that is the way the drum was original meant to be played. Maybe the drum lends itself to be played in that manner or maybe that's the ways most drummers are taught to play, or maybe the drum has a controlling spirit which forces the drummer to play in that manner, if infact you are correct that 99% of the time it is played in a rock/dance fashion. I hope I have answered your question, but we go back to the point of principle and consistency. If I can finish with this example.
In the bible we are giving a series of conditions that a person must pass to be considered a true prophet of God. So if anyone claims to be a prophet all we need to do is compare them to the list and if they pass then they are a prophet if they fail then they are not a prophet I hope you are with me. There is no way a person can fail anyone of the conditions and still be classed as a prophet and conversely if he/she pass all the conditions we have to regard them as a prophet. We cannot make exceptions each person who claims to be a prophet must measure up. Now if there are two individuals who both claim to be prophets but they both fail on one condition of a prophet is it not logical to conclude that both individuals are false prophets. How can we regard one to be a prophet and the other not? How can we point to the fact that person 1 is not a prophet because he failed condition 1 but person 2 is a prophet even though he too fail condition 1.
Now back to instruments, am I to assume that the drum is the only instrument hat was invented to bring glory to the evil one? Am I to assume that the drum is the only instrument that can be abused? Am I to assume that the drum is the only instrument that can drown out the singers? We know that the organ/harp were invented by the seed of cain to do what to bring glory to God I think not. Yet Jose says that harps had their origins in heaven, s i am to assume that the seed of cain had a glimpse of heaven when they were constructing their harps/ organ I think not. Anyway bro think we have exhausted the topic you and others have your opinion and I have mine. And I have been accused of not having a teachable spirit, well i a glad I dont because if i did have a teachable spirit I may be a Sunday worshipper or a muslim as they have also accused me of that. Thanks for the discussion/ debate most enlightening, hope we are still friends even though we beg to differ.
Hi Charilie, yes, that is true sometimes. People do do that. You know though, more often than that, I find ignorance of Bible and SOP, not misuse. I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true. I'm only speaking of own experience, and not only on this forum for example. I have personally experienced, face to face, that upon being shown a plainly said truth, a reaction is immediately doubt and oh but this was a little old lady back in the 1800s. Thats scary, friend, and sad as well. While I wanted to bring that up, I agree with what that first concern you shared, because that too, is true.
Friend, the maker of some instruments came from the line of Cain, true, but what were its effects? Were they amplified repetitious rhythms? Did they enhance thinking? Were they to call up the emotions? There is absolutely no comparison between the harp and the trap set, friend. They produce to entirely different state of beings. And yes, the trap set has very pagan origins, thats real. Why do you think its the main instrument in their worship services?
Organ of today is not the organ of the Bible, yes, but friend, you are failing to see that it is an instrument of melody, not amplifying rhythm. Can it be poorly played? Of course, but this argument makes little sense.
Pianos, another instrument of melody. Can it be played poorly? Of course, we should be careful of that. It seems you are going off the, accuse one, accuse all. That simply doesn't work, however. You're comparing drums to pianos, apples to oranges.
Pianos were not used in the DOA, correct. Yet they are an instrument of melody friend. MELODY appeals to the mind. The drum set pulls the flesh. This again, just does not work, for a comparison. Having beautiful, subdued, melodious music is not contrary to the DOA. EGW says thats the way it actually is supposed to be. I'm sure you've read that for yourself, no?
Sabbath/DOA, oh friend, you've failed to understand the typology of what that day means for us now. Please be not offended, but if you are like I was, because I used to speak as you do, and use some of the same reasoning patterns you use, you can at least also be inquisitive and carry a teachable spirit. Don't take this to mean you're all wrong, because I hope you've noticed that I'm agreeing with parts of what you say, friend. Dwayne Lemon has a new series called "DO NO WORK". It is 6 parts. Heres the first one, if you want to understand what the DOA is all about for our day. You know, the "do no work", the "sacrifice made by fire", "afflicting our souls", "fasting" etc. Line upon line, an excellent study. I'm sure you've heard of him. https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/3471/part-1-w... It is 6 parts, and you will find them most edifying :) I really mean that.
About what I've studied and all of that, its about weighing the evidence, really. I understand I'm not the only one whose studied this. Again, I used to think much like you, actually, concerning the drum. It all comes down to having a teachable spirit, and looking at as much information as you can come across. Compare, look at effects, history, SOP, Bible, pray.... there is such a thing as a definite answer ;)
Lastly, about those sources added above now, they are not any ordinary people who teach on the matter. They are experienced, knowledgable in the field people, who also happen to be SDA preachers. Do I put my trust in man? God forbid! And I will much less put my trust in what I "feel" is right, or what my "culture" has taught me to be, or what the "world" says about it. All fails. I'll go with the information that has been well studied by God's end time church.
Just a thought. If drums are used as a percussive instrument to keep a timing signature and I only played it with brushes, would that be acceptable?. Then is a metronome acceptable? If instead I were to use an electric drumkit and modified the beats with other synthezized noises which were more natural (e.g bird calls, claps of thunder, raindrops) would that then be more acceptable, even though it is still a drum kit? Or a keyboard with electronica style beats, would that be acceptable? What if I were to use a discarded trash can and hit it with some sticks, would that be acceptable? Or hollowed out a log and beat it with some rocks, would that be more acceptable? There a lot more percussive instruments other than a "drumkit" which arent mentioned in scripture, something to think about. So if drumkits are "not allowed", then all of the above mentioned probbaly wouldnt be allowed either, how do we keep time? A drumkit doesnt have to be played with a loud rockbeat, it can be played as soft or as loud as the individual wants it!
Another point is "metronomes" are also used to induce a trance in hypnosis (hypnosis is nothing short of channelling spirts really, so lets use the term "summoning"), so then metronomes are not allowed either, unless it is used purely for "timing" purposes. So you can't pick on drumkits as a single entity if metronomes can be used for "evil" purposes to, but rather the intention of the instrument being used.
The question you need to ask yourself is what do we use for percussion then that is acceptable to God if just about any percussive instrument has been used for good/evil purposes! SHould we bring back the timbrel! Just an oversized metronome...
You're concerned more with the actual instrument. I'm more concerned with the effect of it, and what its been doing to our church. What I am concerned with does include a keyboard mimicking the trap set. I'm not being that closed minded friend ;) You also don't need drums to keep track of time in music.
You stated: "A drumkit doesnt have to be played with a loud rockbeat, it can be played as soft or as loud as the individual wants it!"
Friend, I suggest this book which can be found in your local ABC or as the link indicates, from Amazing Facts. Its the link above titled "Drums, Rock, and Worship". You'll find the concept and execution, design of what is known as the trap set, or standard drum kit. Behind its creation was the purpose of powering rock and jazz rhythms, so, thats what it will tend to do. Nissan Skylines, Toyota Supras etc are designed to go fast. They're not for driving slow, while you may intend so, sooner than later you'll find yourself doing what it was designed to do. Why take my word for it though? You probably won't believe me, but a lot of research has been done, and its not that hard to see looking at history.
Your conclusion, interesting. Something else I've seen is that back then, instruments like the cymbal, were used to separate parts of music, or assist in showing the next verse of the song, or part of the song. Sorry if the lack of a better word is being displayed.
I too, have questions I hope are considered more carefully. Might the trap set be bringing a new culture into the SDA church? Might that be assisting in bringing a spirit of rebellion in the church? If the trap sets are designed to to play rock music, and that is what is happening, what then? Words say one thing, and music gives a completely different message. What if its bringing a culture thats destroying our youth? Do you believe I have no reason to ask something of this magnitude? What if I'm watching it happen before my eyes in many cases?
What if we have been asking the wrong questions... friend...
I have listened to all kinds of music in my lifetime. And as far as popular worldly music it really is that drumbeat that gets you moving uncontrollably. I have watched several christian videos and sermons on this. You see since the inception of rock -n-roll how crowds lose their minds at concerts. They get worked into a frenzy and all the while that drum or baseline is thumping and bumping. These days I try to avoid that kind of music. Now I am not saying drums are evil. No instrument is evil. Drums can be used in a way that they are not played to get people to dance or act crazy. In the same way as Brother Gabriel brought out a piano which is in every church and be made to play in the style of Rock and Roll boogie woogie. It's all according to the use.
Now with that said I personally feel a drum set is not needed in the church, because church music as a whole is not as drumbeat focused. What is really the point of having this instrument in the church? In a christian recording studio you might need a drum kit, but in a church you really don't it seems like a waste of money . Plus you run the risk of someone using it inappropriately very easily in the church setting.
I think there are so many problems and more important issues than this. If a church is thinking of buying a drumset, I'd say take that focus and money and buy a church van to help those without transportation, create a church jobs program, start a community garden on the grounds of the church, run a church daycare service, start a fund to help those who are behind in their bills, start a clothing drive. I know I have such a long way to go in my own spiritual walk, but there are some many more important things than drums in the church, so leave them out. The church has done o.k. for centuries without them. Churches don't need drums, We just need Jesus. Oh boy, do we need him!
Hi Ross, thanks for the response. I can relate to much of what you said in the first paragraph, I too believe there is no such thing as an evil instrument, but I consider prophetic themes like our present Day of Atonement. One can discover some very interesting things when studying that,and I know us Adventists like to think we know it all all the time, but its actually interesting how little studied it realistically is :(
I agree with much of what you said in the 2nd portion as well. Personally, I see no place for the drum set in church. Its only an invitation to things we don't need. As for a Christian recording studio part, you may face the question of, "well why is it ok in a soundtrack, and not ok in the church, when one way or anther it'll be present"? I'm not sure if you get this question or not, and if you do, how you deal with it, but I know that soon follows.
There may be more important issues than this, but, I now believe this is a very important issue for us, today. We are in the last days, and should know all we can about it. Here is one thing in particular:
As with the holy flesh movement, music will again be used by Satan in an attempt to lead God’s people into experiences that will blunt the true workings of the Holy Spirit. “Those things which have been in the past will be in the future. Satan will make music a snare by the way in which it is conducted.”—Selected Messages 2:38
There are more... if it is going to hit us around the time of probation, I believe this topic deserves an absolute answer so that people will not be lead astray. What I encounter though, generally speaking, is many opinions and feelings in favor of drums. Honestly, thats not good enough for me, but it is for some. Only saying to show that I do believe this is a very important topic. Most important? No. Important, yes.
You know, you have some amazing ideas in that last part you wrote. I really think they are ones we could benefit from implementing. I hope these are some you've suggested in your own church, I'll see if maybe I can bring some of these up in my own. Thank you for the feedback, I do appreciate all the suggestions.
As Adventist christians we spent so much time criticising the style of worship.I don't see anything wrong with drums in church to help enhance the music.If you are saying that drums make the service loud then you are saying to me that I should not be able say "praise the Lord" or "thank you Jesus" in church.I am an adventist and I am not going to worship at any dead church.When I leave a service I must be spirit filled.
Thank you Jesus.
Hi Sarah, why bold the applause? Clapping reflects a reaction after a performance... while an "amen" is showing the agreement of worship directed at God :) Above is an article Dr. Samuel Pippim wrote regarding that... Respectfully, please do research it.
God bless :)