The following was copied from section of Charimatic Experiences In Early Seventh Day Adventist History by Arthur L. White.. See PDF.
”Counterfeit Healings [Top of this Section]
However, just as other special blessings made possible through the Holy Spirit have been counterfeited, so have miraculous healings been counterfeited. Ellen White warned:
"Let none cherish the idea that special providences or miraculous manifestations are to be the proof of the genuineness of their work or of the ideas they advocate. . . . "Satan will work in a most subtle manner to introduce human inventions clothed with angel garments. But the light from the Word is shining amid the moral darkness; and the Bible will never be superseded by miraculous manifestations. The truth must be studied, it must be searched for as hidden treasure. Wonderful illuminations will not be given aside from the Word, or to take the place of it. Cling to the Word, receive the ingrafted Word, which will make men wise unto salvation. . . .
"The wonderful, the marvelous, will be represented and presented. Through satanic delusions, wonderful miracles, the claims of human agents will be urged. Beware of all this. "Christ has given warning, so that none need accept falsehood for truth. The only channel through which the Spirit operates is that of the truth. . . . Our faith and hope are founded, not in feeling, but in God." --Selected Messages, book 2, pp. 48, 49.
She explained why we cannot depend on miracles today, though Christ often worked through miracles:
"The way in which Christ worked was to preach the Word, and to relieve suffering by miraculous works of healing. But I am instructed that we cannot now work in this way, for Satan will exercise his power by working miracles. God's
servants today could not work by means of miracles, because spurious works of healing, claiming to be divine, will be wrought.
"For this reason the Lord has
marked out a way in which His people are to carry forward a work of physical healing, combined with the teaching of the Word. Sanitariums are to be established, and with these institutions are to be connected workers who will carry forward genuine medical missionary work. Thus a guarding influence is thrown around those who come to the sanitariums for treatment."--Ibid., p. 54. (Emphasis supplied.)”
James said, “The researchers have operated the manifestations since the 1970's and the REV Bible and commentary is an excellent source of research. You admit that you have not deeply studied this field. I and the REV people have studied this field very deeply.”
The REV Commentary is only an “excellent source of research” because the authors have the same belief as you in this area. This is not unbiased research this is just recommending someone’s (or someones’) opinion that agrees with your own. It is unusual not to see Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes being recommended... perhaps it is not recommended at this time because Bullinger did not believe in the modern "operation" of "tongues"?
As to: “I think if you read the REV I Cor. 14 pdf I uploaded, it will clarify the chapter as it is easier to understand then KJV.”
I have to disagree. The REV is a dynamic equivalence translation as opposed to the KJV which is a literal translation. Dynamic equivalence may be better for reading but for study a literal translation must be better by its very nature.
If you want to properly understand the original text then read the original text.
For example, ετεραις γλωσσαις in Acts 2:4 is used in 1 Cor.14:21 in a slightly different construction – ετερογλωσσοις - (both are translated as “other tongues”). But more to the point is that 1 Cor. 14:21 quotes Isa.28:11, “Indeed, he will speak to this nation with stammering lips and in another language.”
If one goes to the Apostolic Bible Polyglot the Greek of Isa.28:11 uses λωσσοις ετερογ (tongue another) and translates it as “another tongue”. In Acts 2:11 the Polyglot uses ημετεραις λωσσοις and translates it “our own languages”. It would seem to me that it follows that Paul is saying, according to the Greek, that the Corinthians were speaking known languages.
Young’s Literal Translation also bears this out, so one may just as well use the KJV or even the Peshitta or Polyglot as the REV. The difference is in the commentary which, in the REV, is biased and therefore not impartial. For example, Bullinger’s Bible Commentary, which, as I said, is often recommended, comments on Isa.28:11 that “another = foreign. Referring to the Assyrian language they were (alas!) soon to hear (Compare Isa_33:19. Deu_28:49).” However, Bullinger believed that the gifts of the Spirit were for the Apostolic Church and not for the Christian Church after the Apostles so appealing to him would find an opposite point of view to the one that is being promoted.
Seventh-day Adventists have traditionally treated the KJV as the “gold standard”. Whilst there was a flirtation with the NIV for a time in the main that was soon replaced with the NKJV. None of these versions, including the KJV, are perfect but I return to the point that a literal translation is better for study than a dynamic translation.
On another point, James said, “JohnB acknowledged that he had spoken in tongues, did not understand the language and wasn't sure what was happening, but a listener heard it as it was in his own native language.” (Emphasis mine.)
I want to correct the bolded part of the statement above. I did not say that I was not sure what was happening, I said, “I was not even aware of what was happening at the time.” This may appear to be semantics but there is a difference between not being sure what was happening (which implies that I was aware that *something* was happening) and not being aware at the time that anything was happening. I’m sure James summarised in good faith but that was not the intent of the words that I wrote.
From the REV website I quote;
"The Revised English Version® (REV®) is the New Testament version by Spirit & Truth Fellowship International®. We call it the REV because we are presenting a revised version of earlier English versions, primarily the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), which we have used as the base text for our work."
"We have worked to keep the REV as a literal translation whenever appropriate, like the ASV or King James. It is not a “dynamic equivalent translation,” such as the NIV, although there are times when, to make good sense in English, we had to depart from a strictly literal translation. Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible that more closely represents biblical truth than any other translation currently on the market, and also one that is written in today’s English.
We think we can do that because we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one’s theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.
If this publication is a blessing to you, please consider sowing into our “REV translation fund.” We are in need of donations to continue to fund our translation work."
Bullinger did amazing research, and I believe God worked in him as far as the vast majority of his work was concerned. I highly respect him. But a major mistake was his conclusion that healing etc. had ceased as he cited people that were sick quoting from scriptures of those that were sick or who had died. At that time and even today, it is rare to see the spirit of God manifested. Most believers will never see a manifestation of the spirit of God in their lifetime. This was so during Bullinger's lifetime also. He made the mistake of thinking the manifestations had ceased as no longer available, a cessationist. Just because you don't see the supernatural including the manifestations of holy spirit does not mean they are dead, not available. The supernatural is available from both sides of the war, from the true God and the God of this world. I have found a few places in the Companion Bible which were incorrect. No one is perfect, myself included. I also have never found a 100% accurate ministry, perhaps 98% at best. I include myself that I am not perfect, and I have found beliefs to be wrong that I had believed and have since changed my mind, as well as taken on other truths that I found to be true. I am a seeker of the truth and have devoted a lot of time, money and energy in continuing to study, pray, listen to God and operate the manifestations of holy spirit, fellowship with other believers etc.
I recognize and acknowledge that God works in SDA believers and all believers for that matter, and that most believers are attempting to do the best the can, and I recognize the love of God manifested also. But the truths and power of God operated in love and guidance of the holy spirit is sorely needed by the whole Body of Christ including the SDA. I have seen and experienced glimpses of the First Century church-like as manifested over the decades, but I want to see an outpouring of the holy spirit to deliver and help God's people like seldom seen. I am 67 years old, I want to see the Word live big time. That is my reason for posting here as well as other things I do elsewhere. I fellowship with other believers as well as minister to others to the best of my ability. May God get the glory in all things. We can do nothing without His help! There is only ONE body of Christ, and He is the head. WE should follow him and he shall direct our paths.
James quoted from the REV website, “We have worked to keep the REV as a literal translation whenever appropriate, …. Our goal is to eventually have an “essentially literal” translation of the Bible … we believe a person has to understand the meaning of the text correctly to be able to translate it correctly. Furthermore, one’s theology always affects the way that person will translate the text. It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology.” (Emphasis mine.)
Thank you for the correction, James, it is very helpful as it also dispels some of the confusion that I had in reading that it was a dynamic equivalence translation whilst personally observing that much of it reads as a literal translation. So, I can learn the intention whilst noting that, as they openly say, their translation is not solely a literal translation and that it reflects their theology. Whilst that may be good for you, my preference is a more theologically neutral Bible, particularly – I have bolded the parts of their explanation that cause me concern.
I have read Bullinger over the last 25 years and agree that he has done some excellent research, particularly Witness of the Stars, Number in Scripture and Figures of Speech in the Bible. But, as you say, I don’t agree with everything. I also agree that it is hard to find anyone to trust 100% - with the caveat that, being a Seventh-day Adventist, I do believe in the Spirit of Prophecy and therefore regard the writings of Ellen White as being the lesser light pointing to the greater light and that the Spirit of Prophecy that worked through her is the same Spirit of Prophecy that worked through the prophets of the Old Testament. In my experience any time that I have had a dispute with Spirit of Prophecy I have found that I was the one in error. I have a natural aversion to any teachings that cannot be proven directly – and clearly – from the word of God.
The phenomenon of Acts 2:11 is that these different people from different countries who spoke with different languages each heard in their own language that which was said by the apostles by speaking in tongues without interpretation as Paul recommends in the church so that all may be edified. The apostles did not interpret tongues on that Day of Pentecost, which came into the first-century church sometime after, they only spoke in tongues without interpreting. God did it somehow?
This was a great day as the birth of the body of Christ, which was never mentioned before, as it was part of the sacred secrets hidden in God since the foundation of the world until revealed to the Apostle Paul who elaborated on how the body works together fitly joined together spiritually and that Christ is the head. The manifestations operated in love are part of the functioning of that body. This is the truth about those that call themselves Christians, and it is far above and superior to the denominational separation and schism and is God's organization spiritually as He organizes it and directs through His Son Christ Jesus. All praise and glory to God and His Son, Amen!
James said, "The apostles did not interpret tongues on that Day of Pentecost, which came into the first-century church sometime after, they only spoke in tongues without interpreting. God did it somehow?"
Acts chapter 2 explains it very clearly and I am surprised that you are struggling with this. I believe this is because of a fundamental misunderstanding. Note that the foreign Jews all heard the apostles speaking in their own languages but the local Jews were confused as to what was happening because they didn't understand the languages that were being spoken. So Peter explained that this was a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy and interpreted for them what was being said. When they heard the gospel message they were converted and three thousand people were converted as a result of the gospel being preached to them in their own languages.
In one of your responses to Reasoning you stated that there were "others teaching me and encouraging me. I had to have faith and desire to learn the Word and the manifestations etc." Through the response you mentioned "learning" how to "operate" the Holy Spirit. Here is a major disagreement because we are talking about a "gift" not about something that you go and learn and practice and master but about something that is a gift of the Holy Spirit. You cannot just go and take an exam and then receive a licence that qualifies you to drive the Holy Spirit (to adapt an analogy you used with Elijah) - but this is what I hear from you, that you are somehow "qualified" through training and association. It just doesn't work that way. The gifts of the Spirit are distributed as God sees fit, not depending on learning or training:
The nine manifestations of holy spirit are not "gifts," as gifts is italicized in KJV, which means there is no corresponding text in the manuscripts, which means it was added by the translators. The God-given ability to operate the nine manifestations of holy spirit comes with the Gift of God which is holy spirit which is given and received by every born-again believer. That is the qualification requirement.
But, it is good to have mentors with accurate knowledge and practical experience both to teach about and lead people into this area, especially with the prevalence of misinformation, fear, wrong doctrines, myths and counterfeit operations. I am glad I had mentors and teachings on the basics. Walking with God by the holy spirit is what guides and directs and teaches believers to operate these manifestations in cooperation with God and Jesus Christ. Actually learning never ceases.
Seems to me you are forgetting the most important thing James
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
It does not say Here are the ones operating the 9 manifestations, does it? Seeing you Reject the Sabbath it does not matter how many manifestations you can operate. You are guilty of being an unrepentant lawbreaker, make sure you do not have a computer chip too.
James said, "The nine manifestations of holy spirit are not "gifts," as gifts is italicized in KJV, which means there is no corresponding text in the manuscripts, which means it was added by the translators."
This is completely wrong.
The word μερισμοις is present in the original Greek (both Westcott Hort and Textus Receptus) and is not italicised in the KJV. It is translated as "gifts" in the KJV, "distributions" in Bullinger's Companion Bible (Bullinger refers to "gifts" in his Commentary), also "distributions" in the REV, it is "gifts" in the Peshitta of the Aramaic and in Tyndale.
All translations agree that this is something given by the Holy Spirit "according to His will." To suggest that it is not ruins the context of the verse and makes the last four words redundant.
This is why one cannot be taught πνευματος αγιου μερισμοις. The Holy Spirit determines which gift one should receive, just as one does not determine which gifts one receives so one cannot be "taught" which gift one is given.
So, this theory is built on a false premise.
Perhaps it is worth considering what Elijah mentioned? The saints are described as those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12) How can the Holy Spirit be dispensing gifts to those do not keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus? We know that there will be false "gifts" that are dispensed by satan to those who are not following God's path.
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." (Revelation 13:13-14)
From King James Bible Research Council;
by Dr. David L. Brown
Why did the King James Bible translators use italics in the King James Bible? Was it because God miraculously gave the translators additional inspiration the same way He did as recorded in 2 Peter 1:21, “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”? Or is it, as some have assumed, that these words were printed in this fashion for emphasis? The answer to both of these questions is, NO.
In fact, the words in italics in the King James Bible are words that were added by the translators to help the reader. This is usually necessary when translating from one language to another because a word in one language may not have a corollary word in English and idiomatic expressions often do not easily move from one language to another. Hence, the words in italics are words which do not have any equivalence in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek text. By adding these words, the translators’ goal was to make the meaning of the sentence clearer and produce a more readable translation that read smoothly, yet was true to the original. However, to make sure that the reader understood that these words were not in the manuscripts, they set them in italics.
I have Gordon Campbell’s book entitled Bible: The Story of the King James Version, published by Oxford University Press. Published in 2010, it is a history of the King James Bible. Campbell states that KJV translator Samuel Ward reported to the 1618 Synod of Dort the procedures or rules that guided the making of the KJV. He noted that some of those rules were supplementary rules that added information not found in the fifteen rules given the KJV translators. Campbell asserted that this information reported by Samuel Ward has “the inestimable advantage of reflecting what actually happened rather than what was supposed to happen.” (p. 41).
Here is the rule the KJV translators used themselves as presented by Samuel Ward that relates to the use of italics:
“Words that it was anywhere necessary to insert into the text to complete the meaning were to be distinguished by another type, small roman…” (p. 42).
So you are not confused, I remind you that the 1611 Bible was in fancy Black Letter type. The added words were in smaller Roman type and not italics. In later editions that were set in Roman type, italics were used. This is what we see in our King James Bibles today.
F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “The end proposed by the use of italics is thus explained in the Geneva edition of 1578. ‘Where as the necessity of the sentence required anything to be added (for such is the grace and propriety of the Hebrew and Greek tongues, that it cannot but either by circumlocution, or by adding the verb, or some word, be understood of them that are not well-practised therein), we have put it in the text with another kind of letter.’ If this be the rule which the translators of our present version proposed to themselves (and we have every reason for believing that it was), it follows
that such a rule should be carried out uniformly, and on all occasions” (Supplement to the Authorized English Version of the New Testament, Vol. I, pp. 60-61).
Scrivener also quoted in a note a similar comment from the 1557 Whittingham’s New Testament.
Thus, the early English translators themselves stated one of the rules or principles that they used for “italics” [or putting some words in a different kind of letter or type], and the above evidence shows that principle was also affirmed and advocated by the KJV translators.
The words in italics are there for a purpose. While there are many illustrations to show how helpful the italics are, I will show you just one. We see that David killed Goliath in 1 Samuel 17:49 “ And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.” That is confirmed in 1 Samuel 21:9 “And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is herewrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here. And David said, There is none like that; give it me.” Watch carefully the importance of the italics in II Samuel 21:19, “And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother ofGoliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.” But, omitting the italicized words from II Samuel 21:19 as the ESV, NASB, NIV, The Message, etc. state, it would lead you to believe Elhanan was the one who slew Goliath. Look carefully at II Samuel 21:19 from the New American Standard, “And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s bean.” However, we know that is not a true statement by reading 1 Chronicles 20:5 “And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staffwas like a weaver’s beam.”
Clearly, the words in italics were not miraculously given to the translators by God as additional inspiration the same way He did as recorded in 2 Peter 1:21, “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” Neither are the italics there to add emphasis. The words in italics in the King James Bible are words that were added by the translators to help the reader better understand the intent of the passage translated from the original languages.'
There are many other scriptures that support my position as well as practical experience of how the holy spirit works in myself and others. The manifestations of holy spirit is part of the sacred secrets revealed to Paul as well as manifested on the Day of Pentecost. Unfortunately, the word gifts prevented and prevents millions and millions of believers from manifesting holy spirit and bringing God's solutions into reality in the body of Christ as well as Christianity would be more effective with them universally in operation.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Mark 16:11.
All believers have the same holy spirit and Christ in them the hope of glory.
I do not like your subtle accusation of counterfeit etc.
You and Elijah always play the counterfeit card, just like the Pharisees accused Jesus, and other believers.
James said, "There are many other scriptures that support my position as well as practical experience of how the holy spirit works in myself and others."
That being the case I am surprised that you have not presented them.
Your objection seems to be based on the idea that the Holy Spirit is something to be learnt and earned to be operated like a machine rather than being a gift
However, the Bible clearly describes the Holy Spirit as a gift (see e.g. Acts 2:38; 10:45) as also is salvation in Christ (see e.g. John 4:10; Eph.4:7).
The basic point of a gift is that it is something freely given, not something that can be demanded or earned. See e.g. John 3:16 wherein the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ is given by God because of His love for His creation, not because of anything that we can do to earn that salvation.
In the same way Simon Magus was condemned for thinking that the Holy Spirit was something that could be purchased. Despite being a baptised member of the church Simon thought that he could obtain and operate the Holy Spirit and was roundly condemned for such thinking.
"But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money." (Acts 8:20) Note that Peter's rebuke was on the basis that the reception of the Holy Spirit was a "gift".
Whilst all believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), which gifts are received are determined by the Holy Spirit Himself (1 Cor.12:11) not by an individual earning or learning a specific gift. I note that in none of these verses is the word "gift" italicised as you claim.
James said, "You and Elijah always play the counterfeit card, just like the Pharisees accused Jesus, and other believers."
No, unless you are equating yourself with Jesus or the Apostles, that statement is really demonstrating ignorance of a Biblical principle as follows:
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
In fact, it appears to me to be rather the reverse. You are the one claiming that we should not challenge what you say and that we should accept your word because you claim to be more learned on the subject. I suspect that if you were to examine whose position is the more Pharasaical you may find yourself to be rather embarrassed. You have put forward the argument that you are in a majority and therefore must be right. However, the Bible says that it is not the majority that is correct:
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17)
It is the remnant that are saved and keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. The majority will be those caught up by an unholy spirit:
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." (Revelation 16:13-14)
I suggest that as both sides work miracles it behooves us to be like the faithful Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) We should never forget that, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)
I don't think you can condemn us for following the Bible, can you?
If you were walking by the spirit, then you would be able to receive revelation from God which is not from the five senses, but from the spirit of God, called "discerning of spirits." If you received that you would know that you know that you know whether I am part of the body of Christ or not. You would not be judging by the flesh and by carnality and bias.
I know what relationship I have with God and His Son Jesus Christ. One must be careful before making rash "judgments" especially in regards to salvation and the presence of spirits or supposed presence or influences.
It is just as important to recognize the Christ in other believers as it is to recognize demonic influences. Some SDA think that they are the special remnant and otehrs even think that they are the only ones saved (SDA).
I hear some SDA as well as other denominations attacking others in the body of Christ, even though they may have wrong doctrine and practices, they are still in the body of Christ if born again, and are therefore brethren, whether you like it or not. I also am a member of the body of Christ whether you like it or not or think otherwise. My SDA friends who know me well recognize me as such despite us having some different doctrinal beliefs in certain areas.
I and my SDA friends cooperate with each otgher in praying, sharing and discussions, which remain friendly and the loove of God prevails. I believe in building bridges and my SDA friends recognize the spirit of God in operation in me to will and to do of His good pleasure as well as I recognize gthe same in them.