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Intro: I posted this as a blog and it is not getting any attention, so here it is: I assume the darts will start flying soon or all may just ignore it like you did as a blog. SDA tends to be "set in their ways." Being too snug is not healthy doctrinally or spiritually, though we should hold to the truth. Better make sure you have the truth to hold it?

The material below is based on research and consideration of Ectatic used by SDA etc. and the translation of Greek into "trance." but God does not put beleivers into trances.

Dictionary definition: Ecstatic State: noun 1. a trance induced by intense religious devotion; does not show reduced bodily functions that are typical of other trances.

Trance: noun 1. a psychological state induced by (or as if induced by) a magical incantation. syn: enchantment, spell. 2. a state of mind in which consciousness is fragile and voluntary action is poor or missing; a state resembling deep sleep.

All the SDA literature on speaking in tongues refers to it as "ecstatic experiences." I have never been in a trance nor in an ecstatic experience as above, even while doing that dreadful thing of "speaking in tongues (I say this with tongue in cheek about "dreadful thing.").

Nor have I ever been personally in a place where there was speaking in tongues that the person speaking had ecstatic experiences or strange behaviour. Only the language(s) spoken are strange because they are not kinown by the person speaking in tongues or usually by the people listening to speaking in tongues with interpretation for example. But it does happen iinfrequently.

The use of this term applied to all speaking in tongues or things purported to be or thought to be speaking in tongues as applying universally is misleading and creates fear of speaking in tongues and infers out of order behavior or satanic influence or possession universally which is not true. It is true that even in the bible in I Corinthians chapter 12-14, the Apostle Paul laid out God's doctrine, reproof and correction regarding spiritual matters and things and how they were supposed to be operated in the assembly of believers. Paul did not tell them not to speak in tongues, but to do so both in their private prayer life and in the assembly If interpreted only otherwise to keep quiet, and not for everyone to speak in tongues all at once and without interpretation.

The lack of understanding of I Corinthians 12-14 and the subsequent lack of power of the holy spirit in most churches, as well as the problem of both mixed genuine holy spirit manifestations and false doctrines, practices, behaviors or completely Satanic operations purported to be "the holy spirit" makes me sick. It certainly sickens God. The unbelief, fear, craziness and extremes of either total lack of the evidences of the spirit and the forbidding of it, or on the other hand what I call the "spiritual disneyland type situations out there were it is like a circus, all makes me sick at heart and disgusted. The ignorance by both the opposers of the holy spirit operations and those that advocate false doctrines, behaviors and false spirituality or frauds also bothers me to no end.

Both forbidding or lack of power of holy spirit or the other extreme as above are all wrong. God does not operate craziness, but he does empower genuine spirit of God operations. Genuinely sincere believers who are born again can misuse the holy spirit to some degree as Paul corrected to the Corinthians. In genuine operations of the holy spirit there should be no loss of consciousness, no crazy behavior, no unusual movements or falling down, no demonic activity whatsoever.

Everything should be decently and in order, as in all churches of the saints as properly practiced in the first century church as outlined by Paul.

The use of the word "trance" in Acts 10:10, 11:5, 22:17 is misleading as God does not put people in trances, but can give visual, audible, gutteral feelings, smells, or touch or even taste revelation that is spiritually goven that parellels the 5 senses, or sometimes just a knowing or "still small voice."

In Acts 10:10 (The vision given to Peter regarding gentiles being acceptable to God; not unclean) the English word vision would be more accurate, as trance implies loss of consciousness and the Devil's workshop!

The word translated "trance" from Greek is the word ekstasis:
Strong's Concordance
ekstasis: a displacement (of the mind), i.e. bewilderment, ecstasy (ECSTASY or ECSTATIC)

Original Word: ἔκστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekstasis
Phonetic Spelling: (ek'-stas-is)
Short Definition: bewilderment, amazement
Definition: (properly: distraction or disturbance of mind caused by shock), bewilderment, amazement; a trance.

HELPS Word-studies

1611 ékstasis (from 1839 /eksístēmi, "completely remove") – properly, take out of regular position (standing) and bring into a state of ecstasy (rapture) – like a person "carried out" in trance-like amazement. This state of mind reaches far beyond the powers of ordinary perception.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from existémi
Definition
a displacement (of the mind), i.e. bewilderment, ecstasy
NASB Translation
amazement (1), astonishment (2), completely* (1), trance (3).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1611: ἔκστασις

ἔκστασις, ἐκστάσεως, (ἐξίστημι);

1. universally, in Greek writing, any casting down of a thing from its proper place or state; displacement (Aristotle, Plutarch).

2. a throwing of the mind out of its normal state, alienation of mind, whether such as makes a lunatic (διανοίας, Deuteronomy 28:28; τῶν λογισμῶν, Plutarch, Sol. 8), or that of the man who by some sudden emotion is transported as it were out of himself, so that in this rapt condition, although he is awake, his mind is so drawn off from all surrounding objects and wholly fixed on things divine that he sees nothing but the forms and images lying within, and thinks that he perceives with his bodily eyes and ears realities shown him by God (Philo,quisrerumdivin.heres § 53 (cf. 51; B. D. under the word, Trance; Delitzsch, Psychol. 5:5)): ἐπέπεσεν (Rec., others ἐγένετο) ἐπ' ἔκστασις, Acts 10:10; εἶδεν ἐν ἐκστάσει ὅραμα, Acts 11:5; γενέσθαι ἐν ἐκστάσει, Acts 22:17, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2f.

I don't like the inference of lunacy. If you go by the negative definitions of the Greek word ekstasis, used of Peter, then ironically (but erroneously) you can only conclude that Peter was ekstasis (a lunatic) and in an ecstatic state, such as SDA state about speaking in tongues. Then Peter and everyone else such as Paul, John, even Jesus himself were in ekstasis and ecstatic states of mind in the negative sense and we might as well become "budhists."

The complete lack of understanding of the manifestations and the holy spirit started witth the falling away that occurred even during Paul's lifetime when all Asia had turned away from him and thus God's doctrines and truths. This was exasperated by Gnostic extremism and the taking over of the church by Constantine in 325 AD with the Nycene Council. The iron hand of the Catholic church developed which destroyed understanding further, and rewarded any manifestation of holy spirit as witch-craft, just like you SDA do here about genuine operations of the holy spirit. The great Biblical scholar of late 19th century England, E.W. Bullinger unfortunately was ignorant about the holy spirit manifestations and believed that they were no longer available from God by citing in the church epistles where so and so could not travel because he was sick or so and so died. There was no evidence of holy spirit or very little or if in operation was not known or recognized. Take the whole history of man, how often do people have the power of the holy spirit throughout all of man's history?

That also applies to EGW, what did she know about the holy spirit, what did anyone know? What do most people know today, almost nothing accurately. EGW never spoke in tongues, interpreted, or to my knowledge operated gifts of healing, or working of miracles according to the Bible. Holding up a bible for long periods of time while in a trance like state, what profit is that? I am not saying that she is completely of Satan, but there are things that happened that don't coincide with freedom of will and are more like a trance like state as the negative Satanic like definitions state above about the word ekstasis.

The Bible scholars who translated the KJV in 1611 also did not understand the holy spirit as far as the manifestations and how they should be operated either, which colored some of the translations; thus trance, and which is carried over into Strong's etc. Strong's used to be more accurate, I have noticed a change from many years ago in that it is less accurate and is colored by religious beliefs and doctrines as far as definitions are concerned. Every denomination, translater or interpreter has his or her bias which colors the truth unfortanately. The total lack of understanding of how God works has caused great problems and lack of healing, prophesy, revelation and the other manifestations of holy spirit.

But as stated above, that one part of Strong's Concordance which states "This state of mind reaches far beyond the powers of ordinary perception." Visions of God or other revelation can parellel the five senses, but is certainly beyond the powers of ordinary perception. That I do agree with. But trance, NO! Others have stated similar sentiments as I have about the use of the word trance when referring to use of holy spirit inspiration/operations, such as John Schoenheit and others.

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I still think EGW was a mixture as we all are. She said a lot of things that coincide with the Bible, as well as other things that don't coincide with the scriptures. Ultimately, we will find out in eternity as we will know even as we are known, and will no longer see through a glass darkly, but face to face.

Oh, I just realized my original was not a blog like I thought, it was in general discussion also. Well, I am trying to get some reaction, even negative reaction is better than being completely ignored.

My understanding of speaking in tongues James, was a gift to enable people of one language to speak to others of salvation in another language....

The most modern example of this was when Ron Wyatt was in Sudan prison, finding his way to Mt Sinai, and spoke a phrase to them in English, that came to them in Arabic....on that basis they let them go....He later learned what He said was profound....yet He does not remembers saying that at all....that's one example of the gift of tongues helping witness to another...

SHalom

James,
Am scared of responding as you shall curse me...
Nevertheless let me say that unfortunately for You, the forum is comprised of mostly sda and the phenomenon is alien to adventist belief. Well not really alien, but rejected. Sorry. Heart felt sorry. I do have friends who are pentecostal and we differ on that and other things. Unfortunately because your experience is what you have honestly felt, we can not correct You at all! You have experienced it. We, or at least I, simply reject it as false. Sorry. Glad you said negative remarks are welcome.
There, I have not ignored you.
Mutinta

Well Mutinta, you are being honest with how you feel, and recognize I believe that I am being honest in my beliefs. Did you read my posts about the Greek word laleo, which means to use the voice or speak without reference to the words spoken. That does not mean possession, but just that a person speaks by opening the mouth, moving the lips and immediately God gives the utterance. This is true for speaking in tongues, tongues with interpretation (including the interpretation) as well as prophesy. That is how the spirit of God works.

Have you read my post that started this discussion about Ecstatic? I understand that SDA don't have a tradition of SIT etc., which is true for most churches also. You don't want to give up freedom of will. Neither do I, nor have I ever given it up. God does not ask us to give up freedom of will. I think you just don't understand. It is difficult to overcome 2000 years of what started during Paul's ministry when all Asia Minor turned away from him and the truth he stood for, as well as the taking over of all Christianity by Constantine which became the Catholic Church.I disagree with some practices of the Pentecostal Church, including the speaking in tongues outloud without the same person interpreting that spoke in a tongue (which Paul objected to also), as well as any falling down, loss of consciousness, or unusual behavior other than the actual speaking in tongues which to the uninitiated, may seem strange that people speak in other languages without reference to the words spoken. It sounded strange to me also, but when I studied and then understood, and then actually spoke in tongues, I realized my connection with God was stronger because I knew it is impossible except by the spirit of God to speak in a language(s) you don't know, but is a perfect language(s) of men or of angels and done completely with freedom of will. But people should be able to speak in tongues, look around, breath normally, act normally and keep their freedom of will. The spirit of God does not take people over. I addressed that in my post above at the top regarding the use of "trance" instead of vision in several verses, as trance is foriegn from the operation of the holy spirit.

Well, all the manifestations of holy spirit in operation, witnessing, attending church, or any other works whatsoever do not confer righteousness, as that is works, but rather possibly rewards if done out of the right motives with the love of God and approved of God. I appreciate your apology. God will not force you to do anything, thats your freedom of will. But I will still try to encourage people to accept the manifestations of holy spirit that was practiced in the early days of the church.

I will not curse you, cursing is calling upon Satan to bring evil, disease and other negative things to a person through the use of incantation and other Satanic rites. I do not practice that. I did pray for you as you requested prayer.

James,
Thanks. Noted.
Mutinta.

Humm, very interesting read

James,

It is indeed a sensitive topic, one that deserves much attention i believe especially as we are nearing the end of this Earth's history. Now as indicated in your extensive post here, to be in aTrance is a psychological state of mind, a half-conciousn state characterized by  an absence of response or external stimuli typically as induced by hypnosis or entered by a medium.  Now this can be achieved through hypnosis, magic even some medications/ illicit drugs. Now with this said, i  do not believe that we as professed christians should ever be in a state where we lack awareness unless we are literally sleeping, this is why we have to avoid placing certain substances in our bodies that will affect our cognitive abilities.

In like manner we have to avoid listening to any music or participating in any activity that will cause us to be in this state of mind. The mind of the christian must always be engaged, the bible advice us to be sober minded. If per chance we are ever in a trance, we leave our mind in a vulnerable state that is easy for the devil/demons to poses. 

Many people believe that when they are in a trance that they are closer to God and that is why we have this new movement now with these repetitive  so call gospel songs, that can literally cause some degree of hypnosis. many protestant ministers use this type of songs during their services, in an attempt to control their members. Many church members believe that when they have this outer body experience, that they are experiencing  the power of the Holy Spirit . 

It is indeed a deep topic James. Hopeful many will take notice of it

Emmy, yes, I Corinthians 12;

1"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant." The word spiritual is pneumaticos, Greek, meaning spiritual matters or things. Gifts added by the translater which has no authority, has caused undue confusion combined with difficult translation problems further on. Too many people including Christians are very ignorant of spiritual matters of things, both those spiritual things of God and those dark spiritual matters of Lucifer.

One time a person took me to a fellowship held in a private home by Reverend Al if I remember his name? Anyway, he was living off of the "followers." My acquintence who brought me no longer was a follower per se, he told me how the Reverend got a new car etc, by taking advantage of his "followers."

Apparently my friend has seen the light of the truth of the matter.

Well, they started singing, my friend and I sat in the back on a coach of the living room. They hpnotically sang the same song over and over...they were literally stoned on devil spirits, just as if they had smoked a joint of the strongest marijuana! My friend and I were not affected that way, but I couldn't believe it, and started laughing outload because it was so outragious what was going on, so pathetic that it was laughable literally, that this is the state of "Christianity" and that this was done in the name of God. Sometimes we have to laugh at grave situations, thats why soilders often have humor with dead and wounded all around, its a way of relieving stress and difficult situations.

The Rev came over and was upset that both my friend and I were laughing indignently at his "service," I politly apologized as it was his home and no sense making a scene, as disrupting a religious ceremony is possibly a minir crime, and after a few minutes my friend and I decided to leave mostly out of boredom, not being edified by the "repeated performance." I had NO respect for that creature called a Reverend. My friend and I went down the street and looked around the closed Jewish Community Center. Ironically, that was more together and more interesting than the hypnotic garbage that was going on with the other ministry. At least the Jewish place probably didn't entertain hypnotism.

Reptition is a valid and not necessarilly always a Satanic part of music, these things have to be judged on an individual basis. There are three ways to judge a work of art or music (or any art form for that matter). The first is spiritually, does it flow with Biblical and Godly principles, or is it blatantly demonic and intended to support or do evil etc.? Merely showing some evil is not necesarilly evil in itself, as the Bible itself has records of evil men and their plans and actions, as well as God and his people's dealing with it. The older movies were good having a moral message such as The Ten Commandments movie, which was not completely accurate Biblically, but the main message and story was excellent, as well as the acting and production value, which brings me to the second way to judge, that is technically: Is the work well done technically with great skill etc.

The third way to judge a work of art or music etc. is whether you like it or not irregardless of its spirituality or technical matters.

So, some works of art may be right on spiritually, but not well done techniclly. Visa versa, a work could be off spiritually, yet a great work of art or music irregardless. Now, for example, the Doors famous song "Riders On The Storm," is a great work of music, the production values and especially the Fender Rhoads part is very good musically.

Spiritually, I hate the song, but it does have some spiritual truth in it regarding the dark side:

Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Into this house we're born
Into this world we're thrown
Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan
Riders on the storm

There's a killer on the road
His brain is squirming like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If you give this man a ride, sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah

Girl, you gotta love your man
Girl, you gotta love your man
Take him by the hand
Make him understand
The world on you depends, our life will never end
Gotta love your man, yeah

Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Into this house we're born
Into this world we're thrown
Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan
Riders on the storm

Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm

I believe Riders on the storm refers to Lucifer and his demons. The house refers to astrological signs that were originally signs in heaven set up by God, such as Virgo had to do with the virgin birth etc., but perverted by the Devil. (See E.W. Bullinger's Witness Of The Stars or Appendix in the Companion Bible by Bullinger.). Satan was cast out of heaven and therefore came out of one of those astrological Houses of the 12 astrological "signs."

Satan and his fallen angels (demons) were indeed cast out of heaven. Into this world we're thrown. Like a dog without a bone, an actor out on loan is sympathetic to the Devil it seems to me.

There's a killer on the road, His brain is squirming like a toad, That has some demonic truth to it, but the dark side, yes people act out like animals when they are possessed, in fact often spirits have attributes of animals. Possessed people also do not act reasonably or rationally, spuirming:

Take a long holiday, Let your children play, If you give this man a ride, sweet memory will die, Killer on the road, yeah

Let your children play is probably reference to the children of the Devil, who steal, kill and destroy like their father. Killer on the road. Unfortunately this scenario happens too often to innocent people. That is the unpleasant reality too often.

So, here is my take on "Riders On The Storm." I hate it spiritually, but it does reveal Satanic influence and how the Devil works in the music industry. Therefore, I can learn from it even though it is not good, we need to know how the other side works as well as our own side. But we must not totally dwell on Devil spirits. [Often when people first learn to discern spirits they will get exciting about knowing and seeing presence of demons, that is receiving revelation about the presence or non-presence of spirits, if spirits present, whether they be of God or of the Devil, or a mixture of good and evil, and whether you may caste them out or not. It is just as important to know that someone has the spirit of God and is therefore a child of God, or that the person is "empty," has neither spirit of God or the Devil.]

Secondly: Technically; Musically the song and some of its musical parts and the use of the rain storm is very well done and creative (yes, Lucifer was involved in music with God before his fall and still is involved with music and all the arts and technology and culture in general).

Thirdly: I have mixed feelings about the song, I hate it spiritually but gave me insight into Satan working in music. Technically and musically I like the song. Therefore, I both hate it and like it for different reasons. Now, because I understand the song, like if I understand that a jar contains poison, because I know it, it cannot hurt me, I will not eat it, but can examinie it under a mircoscope or test it scientifically.

Let me tell you about another spiritual incident. I got a BA in college in Art, with a concentration in printmaking. To finish up my degree program I took a class in so called art therapy during the summer. I didn't like the psychological garbage and spiritual off fostered in the class, and the teacher certainly didn't have her stuff together one bit. She needed therapy alright!

The teacher allowed one of the students, a female who worshipped Isis, the Egyptian "godess.This person got up in the front of the class and took a simple styrofoam coffee cup and told the class to concentrate on the cup. I knew where she was going, hypnotism. She said get into the cup, become the cup etc. I prayed in the spirit internally in my head (speaking in tongues without sound coming out) to keep the spirits out, as this person had very strong demonic helpers. I kept my eyes closed most of the time not wanting to participate in this "experiment." I of coarse did not lose consciousness. Just at the last moment I opened my eyes and she immediatley crushed the cup unexpectedly. The whole class was shocked, even I resisting jumped up a bit because of the sudden unexpected action and the noise of screams from the other students. I did not scream or gasp.

I was offended that such spirituality was allowed way back in the late seventies in a college coarse. But don't dare do anything Christian in a school.

I know you won't like the SIT part of my story, but it is a vital part of the 9 manifestations of holy spirit, like if you have a tool box to do carpentry, your pretty limited if you just have a hammer and nothing else. The manifestations of the spirit are to profit withal, and are good when used as God intends, and there is a built in protection that God has set up, in that you can misuse tongues for example as they did in Corinth, everyone speaking in tongues at once, with no interpretation and not done orderly so that everyone can hear, learn and be edified.

But God energizes the manifestatons, so He will not allow things to be used too far out of his will. He would not allow someone to go down the street and make everyone blind, both good and bad people for example, if someone was on a power trip. But God did energize Paul to make the child of the Devil in the Book of Acts blind in that particular case, by the power of God and by Revelation. That doesn't happen everyday!

Every situation is unique, there may be similarities, but walking by the spirit and using the power of God as directed as well as following the written word is paramount. The hardest part of the walk with God is to be able to listen and know it is God, especially with all the noise, electronic devices we have going on, and being too busy for God in this crazy culture and times we live in.

The spiritual war is speeding up, what used to happen in years is now happening in months, and what used to happen in weeks is now happening in one day. These are incredibly evil times, but interesting times spiritually. The war is on, "evil is afoot," as Sherlock Holmes would say.

I wish to say, my ministry is involved in many things, including the arts, history, law, as well as the Bible. I have studied the New World Order in conjunction with the Bible and spiritual matters on both sides from a Christian perspectice, wanting to know both sides of the chess board which is an advantage that we can have. My research has gone into every major aspect of spirituality with the Bible and God's spirit as the guidance and teacher, as well as the other topics. I am an artist, musician and art dealer, art conservator and therefore I am involved in culture deeply. I am most importantly an able minister of The Gospel, a steward of the sacred secrets revealed to the Apostle Paul which was hidden since the world began until revealed to him by the revelation of Jesus Christ. The so called "mystery," which is the transliteration of letters (not therefore a translation) of the word musterion in the Greek, which is to bring the letters of one language into another, English in this case, rendered mystery, which should actually be translated "sacred or divine secret." God does not want the musterion a secret any longer, but unfortunately it still is to most Christians. The musterion is a most important topic though ignored by most. The word is used 27 times in the New Testament. Looking up the word mystery will give you all the verses musterion was used and this is most enlightening, Musterion is a huge subject matter, as it is contained throughout the Episitles of Paul, especially in his 7 church episitles; doctrine, reproof and correction for the church; Romans through Thessalonians.

Therefore, my studies are unique to my ministry and how God works in me and causes me to be interested in certain subjects or matters, and then books, people, events and God teaches me and it is a continual spiritual quest, not always easy, but always fascinating, and never boring. These things are not for everybody, but the 9 manifestatons are for everybody in the church, the body of Christ, if they would only accept and believe. But freedom of will is there. Read my other posts about manifestations and other issues.

Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and the testimony if they speak not according to these, its because there is no truth in them"

Isaiah 8:20. What exactly do you mean. How does that verse apply to what I am sharing? It is not clear what you are saying or attempting to imply?

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