Hi NJK. Thank you for your thorough and thoughful replies as usual. I have a replie for you also. It’s rather long and I answered the most core points you brought. Sorry for it to be so long as I am not gifted with language to reply in a short clear way.
Judah vs. Israel
NJK: First of all I think you have greatly overstated, to the point of (spiritually) misconstruing my statement on Judah. Judah was not “faithful” in the sense of “being perfect” but in comparison to Israel (i.e., the 10 northern tribes) they were indeed, relatively, much more faithful. Hence the 360 days for Israel vs. 40 for Judah thus (9X). Not surprising that Judah outlived Israel by ca. 800 years. It was because of this relative faithfulness that God was able to work with them to accomplish some of His redemptive plans. In this sense the current SDA Church, indeed in its Laodicean state, vs. the rest of the Christian world, have come to fulfill this Judah vs. Israel prophetic typology.
B : If you read 1Kg and 2Kg with the Chronicles, you really see not much differences between Judah and Israel even when Judah had a “good” king reigning. Any reformation a good king brought was always partial. Not all the high places dedicated to Baal were destroyed, not all the droves were taken out, nor all the Sedomite cast out of the Land. The land still never found any rest on the 7th year, and much of the feast weren’t observed, etc...
The only reason why Judah was not as evil as Israel is because God blessed(elected) some kings(a seed) here and there who lead the people in somewhat into a righteous path by their laws they decreed. If it wasn’t for those Kings that God formed and elected, Judah would have been continually evil like Israel.
Is 1:9 says “Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unot Gomorrah”.
The only real reason why God elected these “right” kings(8 out of 20 kings of Judah) and made them good once in awhile to reign over Judah and do some level of cleaning up of the open abominations in the land is for God’s purpose to be fulfill in His promised done to Abraham, Issaac and Jacob and also to David that through their line, A Blessed Seed will come out from their seed, which is Jesus Christ.
Gen 26:24 “…for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.”
Gen 28:4 “and give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land…which God gave unto Abraham.”
Act 3:25 “ ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. “
Gal 3:16 “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, and to thy seed, which is Christ”.
Hbr 2:16 “For verily he took not on him the natrue of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
Also, numerous texts shows this additional reason that it was for God’s sake or His name sake he saved Israel even thought numerous time they have provoked Him to anger. Ps 106:7,8.
These are the only reasons God preserved Judah and did not destroy them as He did with Israel. It wasn’t because they were “gooder” than Israel. And the number of years to bear the sins of Isreael or Judah in Eze 4 has nothing to do with who is “gooder” or who is “worst”. Everyone is short of the glory of God and I don’t believe in this type of doctrine that one is better than another one, according to their WORKS. Any good works comes from God to begin with, so therefore no one should boast and no one should elevate one tribe as better than another, or think oneself better than another.
NJK: Israel was destroyed back in ca. 723 B.C. and the final destruction of Judah and the Temple took place in a third seige/attack of Babylon on Judah in 586 B.C. So Judah paid for their sins in the destruction those 3 Babylonian destructions that took place during the days of Jeremiah, and a little later, Ezekiel. Thus following their restoration, they had a clean slate and only then paid for their sin of rejecting the Messiah.
B: I disagree Judah didn’t “pay” for their sins at the first destruction of Jerusalem. First of all, this is a real bad painting of God’s judgment. This “paying”for their sins would need a discussion on it’s own to tackle that one and it’s a serious offence to God’s character.
Ezekiel 4 prophecy is clear. There are a “bearing” of sins for the sins of Israel for 390 days/years and there are a separate “bearing” of the sins of Judah for 40days/years. I have done this study in the past and have found the 390years and the 40 years prophecied in history. Very few people understand this prophecy and most cannot show where those years are located. Can you tell me where those years are located? Let’s compare notes.
NJK : So in typological comparison/application, while the present SDA Church is far from perfect, it currently is God’s best option to accomplish His will and preach His Truths. It is thus a relatively “faithful Remnant” until a more faithful remnant of that remnant is formally established following the shaking. ‘Then will the real strength of God’s people be measured.’
B : I agree that there is a remnant that is formed…According to what I read from scriptures, I cannot agree with you that it is from the SDA Church. These(144K) will accomplish His will and preach His Truths which will be in context of prophecies already revealed in the Bible. Your timing of the shaking needs to be defined according to what the Bible says.
In green below is what I perceive you are saying accoding to your understanding of events in the end time. Please correct my errors for I didn’t read all your blogs and I’m only reflecting with what impressed my mind with whatever I’ve read so far. So please forgive the shortcoming of this summary and I do acknowledge that it might not reflect accuratly what you believe.
In chronological timing, this is what I believe you believe :
Here’s a glimpse of what I’m perceiving up till now :
2. The seeling of 144K in Rev 7:1-4 before the 4 winds are released.
3.the following all takes place at the same time only once the winds are released
a) The 7 Trumpets starts to sound…Natural disasters from the first 4 Trumpets Rev 8:2-13
b)3AM starts to be prophecized by the 144K to come out of Babylon for the Judgment is coming… There are 1260 days of prophecizing (work finish just before the 7th Trumpet sounded(Rev 10:7 with 11:7,15;); 1260 & 42 Months(Rev 11:2,3; 13:5)
c)Severe Food and water shortage throughout the world resulted from the natural disasters (1/3 trees & green grass of the earth destroy by 1st Trumpet. 1/3 part of the sea become blood(pest from decaying of dead animals) from 2nd metororite falling on the ocean from 2nd Trumpet, 1/3 part of the water sources are contaminated with 3rd Trumpet, 1/3 part of the sky covered with possibly ashes from result of volcanic explosion resulting from Metorite falls of the first 3 Trumpet. The darkness or lack of sun for the 4th Trumpet sound extending for a long time will further cause problem with the crop production of the 2/3 of the vegetation remaining)
d)The first beast (7headed)of Rev. 13 comes out and set up it’s rule and therefore will control the remaining food and water reserve on earth. “who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” Rev 13:4 “kings of the earth have committed fornicationwith her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rish though the abundance of her delicacies” Rev 18:3
e)The beseige starts for the people mainly those in the cities who have no choice to comply to the 7headed beast of Rev.13 and are in desperate need of food, water, and medical attention that resulted from the natural disasters. Those in the country will have a little longer their freedom, but eventually their land will be possessed by the 7 headed beast to take food and the water.
f) the big shaking starts after the 4 winds are released in Rev 7:1-4 with the Trumpets sounds
4. End of 1260 days of prophecy …. A great multitude responded to the message Rev 7:9-14.
5. Sunday/law….probation close (The end of 7th Trumpet sounded(Rev 10:7 with 11:7,15;)
Sealing of 144,000
NJK : God’s election of the 144,000 is not an act of force. God only elects those who are “electable” and does not force anyone to become electable, (i.e., “choice ones” - Matt 22:14). Anyone who accepts to be refined by God’s fire will find themselves to be electable.
B: I don’t know why you say the above, I’ve never said God will “FORCE” the 144K into being “elected”. You have a mis-understanding of what is the doctrine of “election” and our freedom. I have elaborated in the Predestination topic and the “why God created Satan” topic these with ample biblical support.
Basically Abraham was elected as well as many others. Do you believe that the world was created by the Word of God? Jesus spoke the world into existance, plus maintains it via His Word?. Jesus Words are powerful and bidding. Jesus knows who is ready to hear His word and never will He ask anyone anything if that person is not ready. Jesus knows our hearts and knows how to get it ready before He speaks His commands and quickens us with His spirit to do His Father’s will. Plus only Jesus knows God’s purpose and He will do what His Fathers has planned and will bring to completion His plan of Salvation by whom He chooses. It will not be by the power nor by the will of Man. It will be by 100% Jesus’s Merits and All of His Doing. If you are one of the many who wants to claim their salvation that it is a product of their own “Choices”, then you will need to be humbled and brought down to the dust which the beseige will help you to come to realize that God is the ONLY ONE that brought you out of the land of slavery.
NJK : I never said the 144,000 were only confined to Judah, Rev 7:4 is clear that Judah’s remnant is only 1/12th of the 144,000. As stated above God will not choose anyone who has not actually been “faithful”, even if viewed from a relative standpoint (cf. E.g., Rom 3:23). No man is indispensable and God only humbles those who allow themselves to be humbled for even if he “humbles”, i.e., punishes a person for their pass waywardness, this is still no guarantee that they will in return become faithful followers of God. Instead these will now become haters and enemies of God.
B: Sorry, but I have no idea where your comments above stems from. Must be from another mis-understanding. Anyway, I will just answer what I understand. Those double negatives always confuses me. From the underline, are you saying that God only can choose those that are faithful? This is what I believe the Bible teaches : Regardless of your blood heritage or your exterior “work”, true faithfulness can only come from the product of the words of Christ in you. So the 144K will be only those who are submitted to Jesus’s words. Those are the ones that are part of the true Church for they have the ONE Righteous “seed” in them that fulfills the Law in them and throught them will accomplish the Father’s purpose.
NJK :The JATS is only a publication expounding on scholarly Biblical research. It has no power nor mandate to “humble” anyone. I really do not see your point here.
B: The fact you used JATS publication to put weight on a point you wanted to stress, brings me concern about how you believe conviction comes about. First of all, the first time we spoke about Ez 38 and 39, you stressed it was a beseiged that happened after the Millenium. Then I brought a Bible text saying why I didn’t believe it was so, then you brought JATS publication which was saying in a very mixed up compilation of all the possibilities of what these means without any concrete conclusion regarding Ez 38 & 39. As far as I remember, you didn’t correct your last statement but resorted to JATS with no comments so I would somehow come to believe what you see.
NJK : Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be quoting 1 Jn 2:27 to mean that you can only learn the truth from God’s spirit. The exegetical context of that passage is specifically dealing with a teaching then that was seeking to replace Jesus Christ with an antichrist. As John said those he was writing to already knew the truth on this topic (vs. 21) and should not be deceived by those who claimed to have an anointing that is teaching things not according this already taught truth and confirmed by Christ’s own anointing, thus teaching things that are not in the Bible. So for anything to fulfill this false anointing, it would have to be unbiblical, and that is really exegetically determined and not by what one may feel or think.
B : Yes, I believe truth can only be learn from Jesus Christ. This is what the Father has chosen to be the ONLY teacher. If you are learning truth elsewhere, be on guard for ONLY Jesus lies not and ONLY Jesus knows the Father.
Anyone can read the Bible and come to different interpretations. Even the most advanced scholars comes with different exegetical analyses. No matter how many hours you spend analysing the Bible doesn’t necessarily bring you to the truth. There’s many scholars who are as mixup and far from the truth. They can flap their lips and deceived many with their “knowledge” but knowing some facts about Biblical history, Hebrew words, logic, and etc… are only facts and never will have the power of the Truth that moves the soul. Truth comes only from Jesus’s Spirit who is the CHRIST – The Anointed one. It is trought HIS UNCTION we come to know Truth and this is available to the most simple of minds.
2:20 But ye have an unction5545 from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
That’s the main point of 1Jn2:18-29, which you seem to have missed it and have seemingly substituted it for “exegetically” studying the Bible by how you always stress this. I’m for studying the Bible and looking for context and etc…. but I’m not going to give it any credit for it to bring conviction. I very well know that via studying, I can go as far down in temptation which will make me vulnerable to even more rely on my knowledges and reasonings and thoughts. Already without the Bible, most do that relying on their own understanding. Those that “study” or get endoctrinated by attending church and get expose to scriptures by others, can get easily comfortable with only that and think I’m so smart already and of need of nothing more.
Conviction of Sin or of Truth only comes through Jesus Christ who works in my heart continually and prepares it to receive portion of what I read or what I experienced or what I hear from His voice…
2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ5547? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
v.22 says those that are the antichrist are those who DENIES that JESUS is the ANOINTED ONE, The Christ. The Anointed One is the meaning of Christo g5547 by whom leads ALL into conviction and Truth and into Righteousness and Eternal Life.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Again here the emphasis is on not denying the Son who is the only ONE sent to Save through HIS UNCTION or anointing. He that is led to acknowledge this, will receive the Holy Spirit of Christ, and receives the Father also because Jesus is Anointed of the Father’s Spirit, so whosoever has Christ in Him has the Father.
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
Now the prime text :
2:27 But the anointing5545 (g5545 same as unction in v.20) which ye have received of him(Jesus) abideth in you, and ye need not that any man(JATS, or your pastor, or scholars,etc…) teach you: but as the same anointing(Jesus) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.(notice the wording here….abiding in Jesus is a result of receiving His Unction…it’s not the other way around)
2:28 And now, little children, abide in him(in Jesus, not in JATS, not in your Pastor, not in the scholars, not in Moses, not in EGW, etc…); that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is BORN of him.(via HIS UNCTION… “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13)
NJK : You will need to substantiate your view on the work of the 144,000 after the winds are released with Biblical and SOP statements.
B: My beliefs are based on the Bible alone as EGW urged us to do. I have provided some of my support in my chronological events above and throught out here as much as I could. I could pull out more but time is always a problem to find all those texts. But if there are lacks, feel free to bring it up.
NJK : Like I explained in the previous post the sealing of Rev 7 while the 4 winds are held back extends through the work and sealing of the great multitude.
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
I do not see in Rev 7:1-4 that the 4 winds are held back until the work is done and the sealing of the great multitude. It simply says to hold the winds until the 144K are sealed. You are adding some words to the scripture here.
NJK : The 144,000 are only a firstfruit of this sealing made up of the choice ones from all of Israel (i.e., the Christian World). That is a view that is confirmed in the SOP’s delineation of final events. (E.g., EW 38; RH 7 June 1887; 7BC 967 & 968). The releasing of the 4 winds is the great time of trouble, and not the little time of trouble. It is during this little time of trouble that the work of the 144,000 will be done towards the great multitude,
B: Show me Biblical support of what you stated to support the underline portion. All prophets are subject to the other prophets already existant in the Bible. I want to see this clearly prophecized for me to consider it.
NJK : when this is done the great time of trouble will be allowed to occur. (LDE 228-9; 7BC 968). Following this is only a work of judgement and destruction and not salvation. The time of God’s salvation is always before the outward manifestation of judgement so that it is only done in Faith.
B: Again show me what’s underline with Biblical support.
NJK : The 144,000 is a restored Israel, even if solely from a remnant. That is the Church Triumphant. As shown in Ezek 38 & 39 Gog and Magog represent the forces that have invaded Israel and derouted her, however this is followed by their restoration (Ezek 39:25-29).
B: EGW says many times history(she’s referring to the destruction of Jerusalem) will repeat if we failed to learn the lessons Isreael failed to learn. With all honesty do you see our Church any better than Judah at the time of Jesus? We can clearly see that we are in a very sad pathetic Laodicean state. And from that state, you haven’t shown me one scriptures that shows how, and by what means, and what events how from the Laodicean group will come out of this “faithful” remnant group. There’s a big hole in your beliefs that you fill in with EGW quotes.
When I read Isiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and all the following prophets, I can quote so many scriptures that prophecies another beseige in the end time which EGW warned us about. That history will repeat if we failed to learn the lessons. You know what? We have failed miserably, and the more we go forward, the more deep we are going. I don’t see any repentance of the Church ahead. God will bring us all in another besiege where food and water will be scarce. This is how God will humble us and the great multitude will come out from God’s work on the heart through the beseige and hearing the last call of the 144K. I really don’t see it throught a TRIUMPHANT Church’s WORK like you envision. There will be a Church Triumphant but it will be through God’s Works via His Spirit through the end time tribulations and the last call to repentance of the 144K.
The 144K depicted in Zec 4
We both know that the work will be done via the 144K. In Rev 11 you have the two witnesses which is described as the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. I belive the 144K will possess the two witness which is the Spirit describe in Zec 4. I don’t want to focuss on the two witness here but let’s only focuss what is written in Zec 4:6-10 when describing the two witness before and after those text in the chapter 4.
Before I go ahead with v.6-10, let me give you an overview of the correlation with Revelation. Zec chap 4 relates to Rev 11 about the 2 witnesses, and Zec 5 correlates with Rev 10 about the little book/scroll and the command of the Lord to prophecize again. This command is to the 144K to prophecize for 1260days or 42 months with the 2 witnesses as depicted in Rev 11. So what’s is written in Zec 3,4 & 5 is very directly related to the end time and elaborating on the 144K in doing the Work of the Lord in building Jerusalem.
Ok, Let’s take one text at a time with some comments in parenthese or paragraph below.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zerubbabel was the governer of Judah who had a major part in building the temple and Jerusalem with the help of others. Zerubbabel : H2216 “descended of (i.e. from) Babylon, i.e. born there. “ Babylon means confusion. So symbolically, Zerubbabel represents the 144K who was from Babylon(the confusion). Right here scriptures used a name describing where the 144K came from which is Babylon. So they came from the confusion. To me the 144K can possibly come from anyone from any Protestant churches(and maybe this includes catholics, I don’t know). All I know every denominations have all well adopted many doctrines of paganism including the SDA Church. So the 144K first comes out of this confusion and God will use them to build Jerusalem(the church who will compose of the great Multitude) “not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of host.”
4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain?(Pride of the nation and of the arrogant existing Churches) before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain:(Many scriptures referring to the day of the Lord making flat/abasing/humbling any mountains or hills as being pride and arrogance..Is 2:10-22) and he shall bring forth the stone68 the headstone7222 (this stone is refered in the previous chapter Zech 3:9 who is Jesus Christ)thereof with shoutings8663 (h8663 means “a crashing or loud clamor.” from root word h7722 means “to rush over; a tempest; by implication, devastation” This is correctly correlating with the end time heavy tribulation.), crying, Grace, grace unto her.
4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house;(right here is to support that the End Time Truth will come from those(144K) that came out of Babylon(the confusion) from which The Lord will teach personally through the rain (h3384). The Truth deriving from the 144K will form the foundation where the house(Jerusalem, the true Church) of the Lord will be laid. This suggest that the truth does not come from already establish Truth like supposevely SDA Doctrines, but from out of confusion.) his hands shall also finish it;(the End Time Truth will be laid by the Spirit that led and taught the 144K and this Truth will also finish the work) and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.(And whoever will hear them, will know that The Lord has sent them for the Truth is with them.)
4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the stone68 the plummet913 (v.7 it said “the stone the headstone” denoting Authority and influence, and here in v.10 we have “the stone the plummet” denoting building on Righteousness, the righteousness of Jesus, of course who is the Branch mentioned in Zec 3:8)in the hand of Zerubbabel(The plummet, is in the hand of the 144K) with those seven;(It’s referring to the 7 eyes on the stone mentioned in Zec 3:9) they are the eyes of the LORD(in Rev 5:6 it clearly says it was the lamb that was slain who had “the 7 eyes which are the 7 spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”), which run to and fro through the whole earth.(from Rev 5:6 it is the Holy Spirit of the Lamb that is sent forth and runs thru the whole earth).
So extracting from only Zech 3&4, the 144K comes out of the confusion holding the stone with 7 eyes, which is the Headstone, Jesus Christ, and with this stone will be the plumb to built the Church from its foundation up to the finish product. The 144K will not continue a work that started from an already establish sound doctrine. They came out of the confusion FIRST through the former rain h3384 Hos 6:3(h3384 mean “teach”,”shoot”, “archor”, “teacher” who is Jesus Christ, the master archor, that never miss a target when he shoots/teachs). The 144K will have a “new” unadulterated pure doctrine coming straight from the teachings of the UNCTION of the Anointing One.
NJK : Although I know my project has strong Biblical and SOP basis, I personally prefer to currently substantiate it on the principles that it is upholding, namely in seeking to accomplish Jesus Christ’s desire for His followers to fulfill the “exhaustively comprehensive Gospel commission” because spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. So if you want to disprove my view for what will constitute a physically restored Israel that will accomplish many Bible prophecies, then, like I have challenged before, disprove Christ’s actual mandate to His followers which I am seeking to fully effectuate! It is indeed better to ‘do what is right than to seek to be right’ because it is only then that we can truly understand what is right and thus God’s actual will.
B: I’m not here to “disprove” you or your mandate. I stand before you as someone who is also eager to know and to do God’s will. So I looked at your project for personal reason and interest to maybe join NJK. But it doesn’t aspire me confidence because I see that it is not realistic in the context of God’s purpose already revealed in the prophecies. Like I said, I see your project fitting on a small scale having people joining efforts between 2 or 3 families forming multiple clusters indepedant from one another distributed throughout the world and moved by the Holy Spirit of Christ. I still do not see a highly huge and well organized body interconnected to one another extending the way you have envisioned it which to me does not fit prophecies. Your organization highly depends on man ability to cooperate and work within a highly controled by man and organized structure. These have never worked in the past and I don’t see any scriptures that shows any success through an organized body like that. We have many failures of Children of Israel recorded to show us how this wasn’t possible and wasn’t ever successful.
I understand how you got to there. I have studied the prophecies, of course with the SDA interpretation and have found many holes in it. I don’t believe EGW was shown much about the end time, that’s why she urges us to study Daniel 12 and Revelations. I do believe she was shown some truth, but much more understanding are needed and there’s much misapplications to be weeded out. Don’t know if the misinterpretation stems directly from her pens or from the Church editings, however I believe all her writtings needs to be tested against the Bible and other prophets. I think that you are laying a lot of the NJK project on interpretations that is not in line with the end time prophecies.