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a. 144,000 is Literal (as in)

b. 144,000 is Symbolical, but it is different from Great Multitude

c. 144,000 is Symbolical, and part of the Great Multitude

d. 144, 000 is the Symbolical number of the Great Multitude

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How can you strive to be a part of something that is not literal that makes no sense.

Second why you putting words in the mouth of the messenger if she said 144,000 in number then that is what she meant why put your own words to it and your own meaning is either you accept that by faith or you reject it because of your own logic. The Messenger of God did not say anything different from what the Bible says on this matter that is a fact.

The way I understand your seems to me that you're answer in the options is letter

a.144,000 is Literal (as in)


God bless!

    Peace to my Brothers and Sisters in Christ... I pray the Holy Spirit is working with us to get sin out of our lives so we can, as the song says, 'be in that number'. I pray the Holy Spirit helps us to strive to perfect our characters and become Christ like, and have His merits, His righteous protect & save us. I ask this prayer in Jesus name.. and the forum said... Amen!

   It's good to be back, I love thinking about these subjects, asking questions and discuss things... but I must always keep in mind, if I don't get sin out of my life, knowing about different subjects and not striving to live a Christian life is not going to work. I mess around and be found wanting..

  I flying home on Thursday, so I will explain my answer(s) more to Jierd's question. I could be wrong in what I think the answer is, but I believe the answers are...


     a. 144,000 is Literal (as in)

     b. 144,000 is Symbolical, but it is different from Great Multitude

     c. 144,000 is Symbolical, and part of the Great Multitude

     d. 144, 000 is the Symbolical number of the Great Multitude

   Lol... I know, What!!? I will explain why I think it's a,b,c,and d...

  a. 144,000 is Literal (as in)----  from what I read, most believe the 144,000 are literal individual persons.. and I believe this is to be the case as well. Pastor Doug seems to say that as well from the video on this thread.

  b. 144,000 is Symbolical, but it is different from Great Multitude -----  The reason I believe it's symbolical as well is because the 144,000 are the leaders, the first fruits of the living. The 144,000 and those with them who starts the loud cry and bring in those brothers and sisters from the fallen churches and the world.

   Just like Pastor Doug said in the video, the 144,000 are modern day apostles... so like with the apostles themselves, it was apostles and the ones with them who believed the same way, who the Holy Spirit fell on, and as we know they were able to convert a large amount of people.

  Those who was with and those who got converted by the apostles with the help of the Holy Spirit were not the apostles Jesus choose when He was on earth, but they were still part of the same group/Church, they were on one accord.. But the apostles were the leaders of the Church.

  Now take that same thinking, the 144,000 are literal people, the First fruits of GOD'S Church, they go out and bring in many people into GOD'S true Church. They are One Church, on one accord... and they are all living Saints, only difference is the 144,000 are the first fruits of the living Saints, the leaders, the Ones who has the Character of Christ and full understanding at the start of the latter rain/loud cry. They go out and bring in a GM... not to have them die after bringing them in, but to GOD protect them and save them from the plagues and go through it together.. What a wonderful awesome merciful GOD we have.. 

  Rev. 18: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



  Rev.7And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

         After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

      When John hears the number and sees a GM... he hears who the leaders are, the First Fruits, but when he looks he sees a GM.. in the GM that he sees, the 144,000 are with them. There is the First fruits of the living saints (The leaders), and the great harvest of the living saints. That's the only difference, but they are One Church.. That's what Jesus prayed for. 

   What is the first fruits of a harvest Symbolical of?   The answer is in the question, the great harvest!!

    EGW: "From the harvest fields the first heads of ripened grain were gathered, and when the people went up to Jerusalem to the Passover, the sheaf of first fruits was waved as a thank offering before the Lord. Not until this was presented could the sickle be put to the grain, and it be gathered into sheaves. The sheaf dedicated to God represented the harvest. So Christ the first fruits represented the great spiritual harvest to be gathered for the kingdom of God. His resurrection is the type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead." DA p.786 


   There are first fruits of resurrected saints, and EGW says it's a type and pledge of the resurrection of all the righteous dead. I would think it's the same for the living saints.. The 144,000, the first fruits of the living, the sheaf dedicated to GOD would represent a great harvest (GM) of living saints. 

   I think I answered why I believe  c. 144,000 is Symbolical, and part of the Great Multitude 

                                                   d. 144, 000 is the Symbolical number of the Great Multitude

    The 144,000, the first fruits, represents (or symbolical) of Great Multitude or the great harvest... still part of One Church..

   and for answer d; I just go to when John heard the number of 144,000, was it just the 144,000 he saw? No it was a GM. John hearing 144,000 is Symbolical of the GM he saw. what he heard was the first fruits, what he saw is the 144,000 & GM living saints together... but together they are one big GM..

    What cha think?


You have to watch the whole sermon.. That part is taken out of context with pastor Doug.. I have seen the full sermon and he thinks it is symbolic.. Though I do disagree with him.. I think it is literal..

  Hi Kristina,

  I'm sorry, but I didn't see and hear that.. maybe you can point out where... I know at the 4:30 mark of the video, he said... "very simply, what the 12 apostles were at the time of Jesus 1st coming, the 144,000 are at the time of His 2nd coming.


  At the 8:15 mark of the video he says, the 144,000 brings in the GM, just like the apostles converted thousands of people. 

  He did ask are the 144,000 literal Jews.. then he quoted Rom. 2:28,29... showing you don't have to be of a Jewish bloodline to be one of the 144,000..


   What I think is, it's literal and symbolic.. as I explained.. First fruits(144,000) of the living saints represents (or is symbolic of) the great harvest(GM) of the living saints. 




So if the number is not literal how come that number are to bring in a great multitude.

   Hi Ronald,

   Ronald: "His idea, borrowed from Doug Bachelor, is that the 144,000 are a literal number, but represent only a relatively small portion of the living saints redeemed from the earth at the end of time. You and I are going to reject this, for obvious reasons. It directly contradicts what Ellen White said about the living saints, after the close of probation, being "144,000 in number."

    Isn't you that believes when John hears the number 144,000, and he looks, he only see 144,000 literal people, but to him it's a GM?

    I believe, when John hears 144,000 (first fruits of the living), what he hears are literal people, but when he looks, he sees not only the 144,000 literal people, but the great harvest(GM) of the living. Put both of them together, it's a GM. The first fruits and the harvest of the loud cry.


   Hi Leslie,


   I believe they are both literal and symbolic... as I explained.. Thanks..

   Hi Kristina,

     No I wouldn't say it's a oxymoron... because as EGW said, the first fruits represents a harvest..  The 144,000 first fruits, represents the GM harvest of living saints.  That's why when John heard the number of 144,000, then looked and saw a GM... The GM he saw includes the 144,000 first fruits with the harvest of living saints. 



Saying it is both literal and symbolic is an oxymoron..


    Thank you, but no thank you Bro.... I can explain myself! :)

  I believe it's a literal amount of people, the first fruits...  and first fruits represents (or symbolic of) a harvest of living people.  Pastor Doug was just on 3ABN tonight, and was asked by Danny Shelton this question, and he said he doesn't believe only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes. Pastor lomacane was right there.

  Is it SDA teaching to say only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus comes? Does the BRI concur with this?  Just wondering if its just a few or many people who believes only 144,000 will be alive when Jesus come.


Ronald what Reasoning wont tell you is that the 144.000 is the first fruit they will come from the SDA church and go the Paliestina and from there they will gather the great multiude from Rev 7:9. Which is a Shepherd's Rod teaching. And that the great multiude is the second friut, this is what Reasoning is wont tell you,or teach you!

Which is the most false teaching in the historei of the SDA Church


My God bless you

Ronald for nearly 2 years I'm discousing this with Reasoning on this forum. It is noting new.

My God bless you


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