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Now in modern times all over the world gayness is being considered normal by the scientific communities and the other wisemen of society.

Gayness used to be considered a disease or a sin but that is now changing, but should it? The obvious argument is that they can form committed relationships therefore there is nothing wrong with their choice. There is dishonesty in that claim. Homosexuals can only form committed relationships under one circumstance. They can only survive if society does what it is currently doing. As long as gays do not have to worry about ideas like children needing fathers and mothers or the diseases caused by those acts, they can seem to have a certain level of sanity.

But that is where the problem lies. Gays want so much to be human and this has led to suicides, drug use, murders, atheism, parades and many other acts of debauchery. If gays are forced to accept the reality that the relationship between a child and a mother is a sacred thing and far more worth protecting than the relationship between two random men, this disease will manifest itself.

At this moment in time some gays can survive without drugs or illicit behavior because they are not being inundated with the errors of their ways. Society at large does not promote the family it promotes wealth and sexuality, so a homosexual says, “I can do that, if that’s humanity I’m there!” There is one problem, wealth and sexuality is not the definition of humanity. If a gay person was forced to accept that civilized society has to be built on the human family their emotional disorders would then become apparent. If all homosexuals ever saw were fathers running around with their children and mothers feeding and clothing and hugging, the gay psyche would be utterly destroyed, the gay mind would become disconsolate, but on the upside we could then invite them to church. Amen.

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Yes. I agree Jim. And we can see this happen each day of our lives. Praise God He is loving and patient and merciful. All we have to do is to fall at His feet asking forgiveness.

I don't know about you ... but my knees are gettin' worn out.
I feel the same way.

I think the sentence, "In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning", can make people think that Ellen White is saying things she's not saying. What she is saying is that Jesus can't occupy, or rule in, a heart that is given to a love and practice of sin. The original quote is in the context of Rev. 3: 20 where Jesus is portrayed as knocking at our heart's door seeking entrance. Ellen White is saying Jesus can't come in while we have the door blocked by sins that we have not chosen to give up.

I think, too, that some people may misunderstand it and think that Ellen White is saying we must be absolutely sinless or perfect before Christ can come into our hearts.

What happens is that Christ honors our freedom to choose sin, and if we want sin, Jesus is not going to force His way into a heart that is given over already to a different master.

That was precisely my problem and why I kept struggling in vain against my particular sins. Jesus knew that I didn't want Him 100%. I wanted Him but I wanted those sins also. He couldn't take possession of my whole heart because I was only willing to give part of it. What we don't realize in that situation is that giving Jesus only part of our heart is like an army in battle only protecting part of its perimeter. Or like a football team only planning part of its defense. It is just a plan that won't succeed, and this is the same way with only letting Jesus have part of our heart. He must have it all or He can't rule. Sin will ultimately get the best of us if we don't give it all to Christ.
Yes. Aren't we all that way. We always hold onto just a little bit. This is why we have to ask forgiveness each day and continue to look unto Jesus more and more. That is the way we will gain victories. By beholding we become changed.
Perhaps Jim. You should read this post again.
Gabriel,

This is the key: I did that once about 10 years ago, and I fell back after a short time of being out of it. My problem then was that I didn't want completely out, just out "mostly."

That's a killer every time. As I said before on this thread, to just give part of us to Him is like a military unit in battle only defending part of its perimeter. As anyone who's been in battle could tell you, it's a good way to get overrun by the enemy.
Yes. That is a good description of our condition. But it is an ongoing battle. We all want to just mostly be out of sin. We never arrive. We need to be more and more familiar with the face of Jesus. By beholding we become change. Praise God ... He is SO patient.
Hi Star,

Here are some of the things we can do to try to reach practicing gays or practicing bisexuals:

This is for personal, one-on-one work as opposed to working with groups of gays or with the "gay community" per se.

1) We should remember to talk to them about their sins as we would want people to talk to us about our sins. How would we respond to people we aren't sure care about us, who come up and start talking about how evil or sinful we are? It is true that of ourselves we are sinful and evil, but that is not the best or most helpful approach.

2) Make friends with them. Show them that you really are interested in them as individuals and not simply because they are gay or because you want to change them.

3) Nurture a friendship with them. Talk to them like you would to anyone else. Show the same respect and care and thoughtfulness that you would with anyone else, or that you would want for yourself.

4) Once you have established a rapport with them, and once they trust you and know you really do care about them-- then you can begin to find out more about where they are spiritually.

5) You might begin with your own testimony of what Christ has been to you and what God has done in your own life.

6) Ask if they would be interested in studying the Bible with you. Maybe for only 20 minutes at a time.

7) Concentrate on the life and teaching of Christ, maybe the Gospel of John.

8) As you study, ask God to lead and to show you when it is time to bring up what the Bible teaches about homosexuality. You won't need to say anything. Just ask them to read passages such as
1 Cor. 6: 9.

If you start out by condemning them and telling them that they are going to hell because they are gay, they won't listen to you and they will never hear another word you say. So if we are serious about doing more than turning them off, we need to approach them in the way I've described. I never would have come to Christ if people I didn't trust had come up to me and started yelling at me about my sins.

We have to realize that it's different when a converted person is told they are sinful and in need of Christ. We accept that. I don't get angry or get turned off by it now. But we must remember that the people we are talking about are not converted. They are "in the flesh," so they are not thinking spiritually or like the Holy Spirit wants. They will react to condemning speech differently than a converted person does. They get upset and just stop listening. When we just come off as condemning we are really driving them further into the arms of the devil and into their chosen lifestyle. Christ never did that with sinners. We should work as He did.

God bless all your efforts!
Thanks, Jim. That was really helpful.

I will keep you and the un-named others in my prayers. Know that you have a caring church (world church, if you please,) behind you. Some of us still need educating, but your disclosure has helped alot.

For example, when I saw gay persons on talk shows saying that they "felt different since they were children", I always thought that they were lying. When you wrote the same thing, I realized it was true!

Thank you so much, brother! I wish you all the best in life.
Trench said:
An innocent child is being told that a parent's love is conditional on some requirement

No children are being told anything at this point. But it wouldn't be conditional on some requirement. On condition of existence. If God's love is unconditional, then our existence must be unconditional, or we must have immortal souls. That's just not the case. I'm just not convinced that it's possible to love someone who no longer exists. Does God love those ~7 billion people after they are destroyed in the 2nd resurrection?

You get what I'm saying?

I wonder if your love for God is unconditional. What if your children become children of Belial, and God kills them and says they are condemned, that they will not be in heaven, like He did with Eli's children. Will you still love Jesus after He does that?

Does the Lord still love Hophni and Phinehas? Is it possible to love someone who's dead? Will He love them when He raises them in the 2nd resurrection? After He destroys them? To me it just doesn't make sense. I'm willing to be honest about what does and doesn't make sense to me at the risk of being painted up as the bad guy, who makes people's blood boil.
Unfortunately ... it is the church that promotes the idea that Gays are not worthy of being in our churches. Sadly they are treated as second class citizens and not allowed to even hold offices in some of our churches. We so much like to judge. But we are ALL sinners saved by Grace.

I assume you meant to say former gays? I was not aware of this policy. But I do know the Bible recommends strongly that no one be put in any position of authority if they are a novice. In fact there are a lot of things:

1 Tim. 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
3:2 A bishop then must be blameless(1), the husband of one wife(2), vigilant(3), sober(4), of good behaviour(5), given to hospitality(6), apt to teach(7);
3:3 Not given to wine(8), no striker(9), not greedy of filthy lucre(10); but patient(11), not a brawler(12), not covetous(13);
3:4 One that ruleth well his own house(14), having his children in subjection with all gravity(15);
3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
3:6 Not a novice(16), lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
3:7 Moreover he must have a good report(17) of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


That's 17 different things. So maybe it's something else?
We are ALL novices aren't we .
Then it would have said don't let anyone be a bishop since everyone is a novice.

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