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The calendar was originally fixed by observation, and ultimately by calculation. Up to the fall of the Temple (AD 70), witnesses who saw the new moon came forward and were strictly examined and if their evidence was accepted the month was fixed by the priests. Eventually the authority passed to the Sanhedrin and ultimately to the patriarch. Gradually observation gave place to calculation. The right to determine the calendar was reserved to the Patriarchate. The Jews of Mesopotamia [in Babylon] tried in vain to establish their own calendar but the prerogative of Palestine was zealously defended."
So long as Palestine remained a religious centre, it was naturally to the homeland that the Diaspora looked for its calendar. Uniformity was essential, for if different parts had celebrated feasts on different days, confusion would have ensued. It was not until the 4th century A.D. that Babylon fixed the calendar." Encyclopedia Britannica; Vol 4, article "Calendar"

Encyclopedia Britannica has this to say about the modern “week” and the calendar:
In the 21st century, we take for granted a seven-day week. However, in some ancient cultures, the length of the week differed. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
“Among primitive peoples, it was common to count moons (months) rather than days, but later a period shorter than the month was thought more convenient, and an interval between market days was adopted. In West Africa some tribes used a four-day interval; in central Asia five days was customary; the Assyrians adopted five days and the Egyptians, 10 days, whereas the Babylonians attached significance to the days of the lunation that were multiples of seven. In ancient Rome, markets were held at eight-day intervals; because of the Roman method of inclusive numeration, the market day was denoted nundinae (“ninth-day”) and the eight-day week, an inter nundium.” Measurement of time and types of calendars: Standard units and cycles”; Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition; 1994-2002; Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

"The (early) Hebrews employed lunar seven-day weeks, which ended with special observances on the seventh day but none the less were tied to the moon's course."
Hutton Webster in his book Rest Days, page 254-255

"These imported [from Babylon] superstitions eventually led Jewish rabbis to call Saturn Shabbti, 'the star of the Sabbath.' [and] it was not until the first century of our era, when the planetary week had become an established institution, that the Jewish Sabbath seems always to have corresponded to Saturn's Day [Saturday]." Rest Days, p244 Hutton Webster

Talking about the time prior to the Diaspora, Hutton Webster tells us that
an old and still common theory derives the Sabbath institution from the worship of
SATURN after which planet the first day of the astrological week [Saturday] received
its designation. The theory is untenable for more than one reason. In the first place the Hebrews did not name their weekdays after the planets, but indicated them by ordinal numbers. In the second place SATURN'S DAY [SATURDAY] BEGAN THE PLANETARY WEEK, while the Jewish Sabbath was regarded as the LAST DAY of the seven, a suitable position for a rest day. And in the third place neither the Hebrews nor any other Oriental people ever worshipped the planet Saturn as a god and OBSERVED HIS DAY AS A FESTIVAL
(Rest Days, Hutton Webster p. 243).

"...each lunar month was divided into four parts corresponding to the four phases of the moon. The first week of each month began with the new moon, so that, as the lunar month was one or two days more than four periods of seven days, the additional days were not reckoned at all." The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol 10. p482 Article "week"


The idea of the week, as a subdivision of the month [was found]...in Babylonia, where
each lunar month was divided into four parts, CORRESPONDING TO THE FOUR
PHASES OF THE MOON. The first week of each month BEGAN WITH THE NEW
MOON, so that, as the lunar month was one or two days more than four periods of seven days, these additional days were not reckoned at all. Every seventh day
(sabbatum) was regarded as an unlucky day. This method of reckoning time spread
westward through Syria and Palestine, and WAS ADOPTED BY THE ISRAELITES,
probably after they settled in Palestine
(The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia vol. 10, p. 482. Article "Week.").

"The Hebrew Sabbathon was celebrated at intervals of seven days, corresponding with changes in the moon's phases..." Encyclopedia Biblica, 1899 edit., p.4180

In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath. “This intimate connection,” records the Encyclopedia Biblica, “between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week soon followed a development of its own, and it became the custom -- without paying any regard to the days of the month (i.e. the lunar month) -- ...so that THE NEW MOON NO LONGER COINCIDED WITH THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK”
Encyclopedia Biblica (The MacMillan Company, 1899. P. 5290).

Then, on page 4179 of the same encyclopedia, we read: “The introduction...of the custom of
celebrating the Sabbath every 7th day, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE DAY TO
THE MOON’S PHASES, led to a complete separation from the ancient view of the Sabbath...” Encyclopedia Biblica 1899 p4179

"The four quarters of the Moon supply an obvious division of the month... it is most significant that in the older parts of the Hebrew scriptures the new moon and the sabbath are almost invariably mentioned together. The [lunar] month is beyond question an old sacred division of time common to all the semites; even the Arabs who received the week at quite a late period from the Syrians, greeted the New Moon with religious acclamations. We cannot tell [exactly] when the Sabbath became dissociated from the month."
Encyclopedia Biblica (1899 edit) pp 4178 and 4179

"The Hebrew Month is a lunar month and the quarter of this period-one phase of the moon-appears to have determined the week of seven days."
Encyclopedia Biblica, (1899 edit.) p.4780

"Among all early nations the lunar months were the readiest large divisions of time... (and was divided in 4 weeks), corresponding (to) the phases or the quarters of the moon. In order to connect the reckoning by weeks with the lunar month, we find that all ancient nations observed some peculiar solemnities to mark the day of the New Moon."
The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia )1904 edit) Vol. 3, p. 1497

"In the time of the earliest prophets, the New Moon stood in the same line with another lunar observance, the Sabbath. Ezekiel, who curiously enough frequently dates his prophecies on the New Moon.... describes the gate of the inner court of the (new) temple looking eastward as kept shut for the six working days, but opened on the Sabbath and the New Moon."
Scribner's Dictionary of the Bible (1898 edit) p.521

"The [lunar] calendar was used by all the original disciples of Yeshua. This original Nazarene lunar-solar calendar was supplanted by a Roman "planetary week" and calendar in 135 C.E. when the 'Bishops of the Circumcision' (i.e. legitimate Nazarene successors to Yeshua) were displaced from Jerusalem. This began a three hundred year controversy concerning the true calendar and the correct Sabbath." Shawui Calendar: Ancient Shawui Observance

Early historical records clearly confirms that very early Gentile Christians also kept the same Sabbath as the Nazarenes. This practice was first changed by [Pope] Sixtus in 126 AD, and later officially changed by a royal Roman decree from the emperor Constantine. Observance of the Sabbath day was made illegal and observance of a "sunday" of a fixed week was made mandatory for all except farmers. Previous to this time the Roman saturday was the first day of the Roman week. The veneration of the Sun in the second century AD began to pressure Roman culture to change the first day of their week from Saturn Day to sunday.
Shawui Sabbath: Ancient Sabbath Observance

“Most theologians and some scholars assume that mainstream Jewish society, at the time of Jesus...was practicing a fixed seven-day week which was the same as the modern fixed seven-day week. This is extremely doubtful. The change, from a lunar to a fixed week, was brought about by the power and influence of Rome. As long as the Nazarenes held power in Jerusalem, all Roman practices and customs, including that of THE CONSECUTIVE WEEK, WERE HELD AT BAY”
Shawui Sabbath: Ancient Sabbath Observance


The association of sabbath rest with the account of creation must have been very
ancient among the Hebrews, and it is noteworthy that no other Semitic peoples, even
the Babylonians, have any tradition of the creation in six days. It would appear that
the primitive Semites had FOUR CHIEF MOON DAYS, probably the first, eighth,
fifteenth, and twenty-second of each month, CALLED SABBATHS from the fact that
there was a tendency to end work before them so that they might be celebrated
joyfully. Among the Babylonians these seventh days through astrological conceptions
became ill-omened, while the sabbath in the middle of the month [15th] was made a
day of propitiation, and its name was construed as meaning "the day for ending the
wrath of the gods." The Israelites, on the other hand, made the sabbath the feasts of
a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the work of God, and
human rest of divine rest, so that the sabbaths became preeminently days of rest.
Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time
between sabbaths was six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working
days were accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for
human life. THE CONNECTION OF THE SABBATH WITH LUNAR PHASES, however,
WAS [LATER] DISCARDED BY THE ISRAELITES..."
(The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia pp. 135-136).

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...and your point is, what, exactly?
We give allegiance, or worship if you will, to whoever controls the calendar we use, to determine our day of worship. I'll take the creator's calendar for my choice. I've seen an overwhelming abundance of evidence. This is why each person must know this subject for themselves and know where they stand. Don't just say it isn't true. Prove it with scripture and Spirit of Prophecy, and historical record.

BTW, are you aware that when the Julian calendar, the predecessor to the Gregorian, was being devised, one of the main criteria was to eliminate the lunar reckoning. Until that time, the early or ancient roman calendars were lunar in nature. It became illegal for the Jews in the time of the Julian Calendar to use their lunar reckoning calculations.

Then comes the Gregorian calendar around 1582, devised by Jesuit astronomer Christopher Clavius, and implemented by Pope Gregory. And you can't just look at the shifting of the 10 days here without the loss of a day. This calendar is over 1500 years after the problems developed. You have to look to the time of Christ and before to see the problems. That is the reason I provided the quote references above. They point to the time periods when the problems were being created.

The problem with the calendar is over 2000 years old. Lunar calendar proponents have no explanation why this material is surfacing recently, except for the fact that God has had his hand covering the calendar problems. Even if you don't believe the feasts are still in play today, notice the word "sabbath" in the following verses;

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Hab 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. KJV

God said HE would cause all these things to be removed, including sabbaths. And then HE went on to say in Habbakuk that even when what had happened would be revealed or told, no one will believe.


And these are only the problems with the roman calendar. The jewish tinkering with the calendar is another chaotic story.

Google these terms, and have a look for yourselves at the chaotic problems with the calendar throughout history;

ancient roman calendar, early roman calendar, ancient julian calendar, early julian calendar, ancient jewish calendar, early jewish calendar, ancient hebrew calendar, early hebrew calendar

We as Seventh Day Adventists should be alert to this kind of history. Otherwise we have to throw out all that Ellen White had to say about the papacy. She also said we have much to learn from the Jewish Economy. Look economy up in the Webster 1828. It includes "calendar" in the definition.

God help us.
Since Creation there has never been an interruption in the weekly cycle of days and nothing that you have posted above goes anywhere close to suggesting that the Sabbath day has ever changed.

The Lunar month is 29.5 days in length giving a 354-day year. The Jewish month was uniformly 30 days in length giving a 360-day year. The Solar year gives a 365.25-day week. You can choose whichever system you want but in every single one of them Sabbath follows Friday and is followed by Sunday.

The order of the days has never changed - and never will.

The suggestion that we give worship to whoever "controls" the calendar is totally absurd. To make such a ridiculous statement and then demand that you are proved wrong just compounds the error. It is not up to anyone else to prove that you are wrong it is up to you to prove that you are right. When was the order of days changed and why did God not point this out to His Commandment-keeping people?

Why add to what is a simple Gospel, the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ? Why attempt to weigh people down with by adding unnecessary and pointless "works"?

So sad... just another example of how following the Catholic idea of God reduces people to desparately trying to "do" the right thing to please God. A loving God would never tell His children to keep the seventh-day Sabbath and then obscure the very day from them.
[ Why add to what is a simple Gospel, the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ? Why attempt to weigh people down with by adding unnecessary and pointless "works"?

So sad... just another example of how following the Catholic idea of God reduces people to desparately trying to "do" the right thing to please God. A loving God would never tell His children to keep the seventh-day Sabbath and then obscure the very day from them.]

Couldn't have said it better JB. sml. I suspect the individuals who believe this are genuine and sincere but God really wants us to understand and makes things clear. His commands are not burdensome.
May I add my AMEN to the above posts by John and Shay.
Paul - The arguments for the observation of the feast day can be removed by one simple fact - Christ Jesus ended the sacrificial system.

You CANNOT keep Passover without a Sacrifice - the Pesach IS the lamb, Christ ended that.

You CANNOT observe Pentecost unless you reap of the harvest of the promised land, this is why the Ancients could not observe this and other feasts UNTIL they entered the land, WE are not in that land.

Who was to blow the Shofar? The priest, the book of Hebrews tells us that system came to it's end, thus without the Levitical priesthood the ordinances of the feast days cannot be observed.
===============================================

As for the Lunar months - again you have not responded that I have seen in regard to the timing of Pentecost - once again: beginning with the Sabbath after Passover they were told to count 7 Sabbaths and on the day after the 7th Sabbath, the 50th day is the feast of Pentecost. Paul you CANNOT come to that number of days using a Lunar system. All the quotes from Encyclopedia's mean nothing if they disagree with the Scriptural record. Scripture clearly shows a 7 day cycle that has no ties to the moon or any other heavenly body calculation means.

Gods peace
Ron
Hey Ron;

I will get to responding to these points. Just trying to play catch up this morning. In the meantime, have a look at the reply I just now posted to Clark P regarding the feasts.

Regards
Paul
The more I look at your post, the more clarity I get. According to your position, Pentecost cannot be observed by us until we are in the promised land. Using that logic, the count is irrelevant for now, whether it's on a lunar calendar or any other. Why bother figuring out the count if it's a moot point. End of discussion. Saved myself some time by reading carefully.
Have you ever visited www.SabbathTruth.com?

If you have not, you should ;) There is also evidence there to show no such thing as a disruptive calendar change resulting in confusion.

God bless in your studies.
Well ... if anything ... these multiple spamming threads have united us in opposition to them. In that sense ... it has been a blessing. But I am ready for the blessing to end.

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