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Copied and pasted from AD Vindicate so that I might share with all of you.

:)

Blessings I feel the same as what is written by Ron Woolsey. That Gods power can pull us out of any sin or trouble. 

SCENARIO ONE

The year was 1999, and a denominational publishing house heard my conversion story from homosexuality, and asked me to submit my story for publication, as a resource for our denomination. I was given a deadline of four weeks.

After much prayer and fourteen-hour days of writing, I met their deadline. After many months, I finally called for a status report.

“Oh!  You haven’t received your manuscript? It was supposed to have been returned to you.”

“Why would it be returned?” I asked.

“It was rejected. The book committee decided they wanted a more balanced view.”

“Balanced view of what?” I asked. “I was asked to submit my story. Are you suggesting it is unbalanced?” I was alarmed.

“No, they just thought it would be better to have more stories to put into one book in order to present a balanced view,” came the reply.

I wondered aloud, “So stories of victory and success must be balanced out with stories of failure? Why?”

For fifteen years now I have continued to face the conundrum of the balanced view, this puzzle, as time after time I have been inhibited by the need to present a balanced view of the subject of homosexuality and the church. Ironically, I had to have my book published by an outside publisher who in turn sold it back to the denominational publisher to facilitate placing it in all the English-speaking ABCs around the world.

SCENARIO TWO

A few years ago I was invited to share my testimony at a conference on Marriage, Homosexuality and the Church. Sadly, I was discredited by one who promoted a view of “once gay, always gay,” and my presentation was therefore reduced to a mere interview. During the conference, this same individual replaced me on a panel addressing the university student body to present “a balanced view”. Critics and skeptics have repeatedly dismissed me as a perfectionist because I share of my personal experience of victory over homosexuality and how God offers salvation from sin rather than in sin.

Through the years, as opportunities to share were becoming less and less, I had made it a matter of prayer to ask God that whatever time I am given, the Lord will make it count. And at this specific conference on Marriage, Homosexuality and the Church, He did. In the closing presentation the speaker stated, “When Ron Woolsey stood here opening night, held up his Bible, and said that he found everything he needed in the word of God to turn and walk away from homosexuality, that set the tone for this entire conference.”

SCENARIO THREE

Once again I faced the conundrum of the balanced view when invited to speak at one of our denominational universities. This time the invitation was held up in committees for months, because of the very “controversial” nature of my story.

“But there are two sides to this issue…” they insisted.

“OK! So, why don’t we present the second side, God’s side…?”

I pointed out that I had graduated from their university, with a degree in theology, with honors, and that I was a conference pastor. Therefore, if straight/gay alliances are allowed on campus, why can’t I be trusted on campus with God’s perspective? Eventually approval came through, and the student body, filled with great interest and appreciation for my message, warmly received me.

SCENARIO FOUR

Two issues especially caught my attention at the recent North American Division Ministers Convention and break out sessions preceding the General Conference Session--women’s ordination and homosexuality. 

Though leadership had commissioned much study over the past few years, the “pro side” of the issue was promoted while the “con side” was ignored and even suppressed. The absence of a balanced view was noteworthy.

There were three different seminars addressing the LGBT issue. My ministry, “Coming Out Ministries”, was originally scheduled to have two of these sessions, but one was taken away due to “controversy”. Again, we prayed that the Lord would make whatever time we had, really count, and I truly believe He did.

However, when another seminar, with a very different message, was given more than twice the time we were given, many people who attended both sessions expressed confusion. I explained that both seminars were in fact presenting the same message, but only to a point. Both seminars presented a message of love and acceptance. However, Coming Out Ministries teaches the full gospel - that acceptance from God is conditional upon an entire surrender of the will, including the need of repentance, surrender, discipleship, transformation of character and victory over the sin of homosexuality, as with any other sin issue. Therefore, along these lines, the two seminars parted ways.

At the same North American Division Ministers’ Convention, a lesbian Adventist, a gay Adventist church elder, and the parents of a gay man married to another man presented testimonies. In fact, a gay Adventist was given time for a power point presentation denouncing all efforts to lead homosexuals to victory and transformation. Sadly, no testimony of victory was given. A psychologist even testified that she had never seen anyone overcome homosexuality. Some in attendance turned and waved at me, for I was redeemed 24 years ago and have been married now for 23 years and am the father of five children.

One of the organizers defended these presentations, saying that the gay issue has more than one ideology and therefore, they needed to present a balanced view. However, such a balanced view left many unsettled.

Do we need to present a balanced view by giving equal time to political correctness, conventional wisdom or social sciences?

Is not God’s view balanced in itself? God teaches us that “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (King James Version, Jeremiah 17:9). 

In 1 Corinthians 3:18-20 we read, “Let no man deceive himself.  If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF BALANCE

In Proverbs 20:23 we read, “Divers weights are an abomination unto the Lord; and a false balance is not good.” God help us if we are weighed in the balances, and found wanting. 

We read in Revelation 6:5, “And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.”

Sadly, “not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven…Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:21-24).

Apparently, balance with God is not found between two opposing views, but rather between truth and acceptance, between the law and obedience, between God’s expressed will and our compliance.

You see, “we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:6). The only way we can be found righteous is in the Lord, (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16). Perfect balance is found within justification and sanctification, and within pardon/forgiveness and cleansing/transformation.

Christ’s righteousness is imputed, or attributed to us at the point of confession and repentance. In addition, Christ’s righteousness is imparted, or created in us through His grace, His transforming power, when we surrender to Him and to the process. 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Notice the balance here.

Micah 7:19 reads, “He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

Ellen White explains, “Satan stands at the head of all the accusers of the brethren; but when he presents the sins of the people of God, what does the Lord answer? He says, ‘The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?... They were therefore standing before God clothed with the garments of Christ’s righteousness…Every sin of which they had been guilty was forgiven, and they stood before God as chosen and true, as innocent, as perfect, as though they had never sinned” (RH August 29, 1893).

We read in Acts of the Apostles that “John saw the mercy, the tenderness and the love of God blending with His holiness, justice, and power” (White,489)

“When we study the divine character in the light of the cross we see mercy, tenderness, and forgiveness blended with equity and justice.” (White, 333).

Now this, I contend, is a balanced view.

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Replies to This Discussion

"No, Manuela, it is not incorrect, it is a statistical fact."

Show me the statistic please which you claim to show that more homosexuals are peadophiles than heterosexuals compared per capita...

It is not there i just gave you 2 statistics which show the exact opposite.

You can not claim that someone who has a heterosexual orientation committing a same-sex asssault to be a homosexual... Thats incorrect he is still a heterosexual.

But Manuela, that is not what the statistics show.

You are arguing against what you assume that I am saying, in which case you do not need a response from me - you can continue by yourself.

You say that I cannot claim that someone who has a heterosexual orientation committing a same-sex asssault to be a homosexual.

Could you please point out where I said this?

"But Manuela, that is not what the statistics show.

You are arguing against what you assume that I am saying, in which case you do not need a response from me - you can continue by yourself.
You say that I cannot claim that someone who has a heterosexual orientation committing a same-sex asssault to be a homosexual.
Could you please point out where I said this?"

Ok John...

Please show me that statistic which shows what you claim...

I gave you 2 which showed that your claim is incorrect since you have statistics or claim that statistics show something provide them and lets see if they really state what you keep claiming here...

Here are the numbers that, before even seeing them, you claim "do not add up". I provide them for others to view rather than for you. I am aware that you have already taken a position against whatever I post in this regard so I do expect nothing less than a rejection from you.

Freund & Watson:

Abstract:

Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1, while the ratio of gynephiles to androphiles among the general population is approximately 20:1. The present study investigated whether the etiology of preferred partner sex among pedophiles is related to the etiology of preferred partner sex among males preferring adult partners. Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate the proportion of true pedophiles among various groups of sex offenders against children, and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. This, of course, would not indicate that androphilic males have a greater propensity to offend against children.

Source: Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy Volume 18, Issue 1, 1992 

Mukherjee states,

A study of the sexual behaviour of men in the United States based on the National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of 3,321 men aged twenty to thirty-nine, published in Family Planning Perspectives), found that “2.0% of sexually active men aged twenty to thirty-nine... had any same gender sexual activity during the last ten years. Approximately 1.0% of the men (l.3% among whites and 0.2% among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual activity.
A study of 457 male sex offenders against children reported in the journal of Sex and Marital Therapy found that "approximately one-third of these sexual offenders directed their sexual activity against males."
The Archives of Sexual Behaviour also noted that homosexual pedophiles are significantly over represented in child sex offence cases: The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2.04.0% of men attracted to adults prefer men (Billy et al., 1993); in contrast, around 25.0-40.0% of men attracted to children prefer boys (Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to 20 times higher among pedophiles.
A study of male child sex offenders featured in Child Abuse and Neglect found that 14.0% targeted only males and a further 28.0% chose males as well as females as victims thus indicating that 42.0% of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation.

Source: Impact of Sexual Abuse on Mental Health of Children pp 120/1

Blanchard, et al:

The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2–4% of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25–40% of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6–20 times higher among pedophiles.

Source: Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol 29 No 5, p.463

Btw: Jenny concluded that,

"Using the data from our study, the 95% confidence limits, of the risk children would identify recognizably homosexual adults as the potential abuser, are from 0% to 3.1%. These limits are within current estimates of the prevalence of homosexuality in the general community."

So, Jenny concluded that the prevalence was the same as in normal society but, of course, did not examine per capita. Neither did she interview the offenders themselves to determine their sexual orientation. The sexual orientation was determined by the person who went with the victim to the interview with no explanation as to how they came to that determination. Considering that 22% of the victims in Jenny's study were male there is an inference that homosexual paedophiles may be more prolific offenders than heterosexual paedophiles.

Groth and Birmbaum reported on approximately half of the 175-person sample, the regressed offenders, not the entire sample. Naturally, as it is with psychology, their conclusion, that heterosexual males pose a greater risk, is described as being a possibility rather than a fact. However, the point is more that the sample was small and was of regressed paedophiles not paedophiles in general.

But being gay is not a sin, although they are capable of committing let's say adultery just like heterosexuals are.

If you are a pedophile I would assume you have committed at least one sin.  

Shannon this is being fuzzy with sin. How can one be gay without having same-sex sex? How can you condemn pedophilia and excuse sodomy in the same post? 

"Hi Manuela, 

It did not say the Bible practice, I said Biblical Principle.
Scripture are given for our learning, however, some examples allow us to learn from the mistakes of others and point out what happens when we are disobedient to God.
The Biblical principle is teaches what is right in the eyes of God.
The Biblical principle is one man and one woman, not children."

Actually you are wrong there now Pastor T.

In biblical times and by biblical principle it was not only common practice and allowed but in case of warfare even ordered by God to force marriages onto female survivors which have not slept with a man yet which was not limited in any form by age and in practice meant children and not women as those were already married in those times latest at age 14.

Especially in the Old Testament you even have valuation commandments for (marriage) vows for children till age 5 and from age five onward. Very far from "age of consent" of our times.

And so on.

So no when God ordered Child marriages or Child rapes and sexual abuse than it is not "only" biblical practice but rather is a biblical principle especially when it is written as Law of Warfare as example and called right in the eye of God as he ordered it.

What you are trying to do here is import the moral standards of the ancient times in regards to homosexuality and declare it morally wrong and compare it with something completely different where you do not import the very same timely moral standard from ancient times but rather apply todays standard. Measuring with 2 sets of standards will not help your case rather the opposite.

Thats why these comparisons are way out of line and should never be drawn or tried. If you argue with moral standards from biblical times than you ought to do it with every topic as well you try to link here and in case of paedophiles the bible very clearly does not only show practice but even principle which does not hold up to our todays standards. Even the marriage between Maria and Joseph would be a paedophile marriage today.

Please stop trying to argue and try to link these topics together somehow.

If sin and dysfunction in families influences what we become and whether we are more susceptible to say divorce or addiction then Manuela and Shannon are saying everyone else has these problems but gay people are immune to such forces.  Where is the science?

"If sin and dysfunction in families influences what we become and whether we are more susceptible to say divorce or addiction then Manuela and Shannon are saying everyone else has these problems but gay people are immune to such forces.  Where is the science?"

You are assuming here the base level that homosexuality is dysfunctional influence/behaviour. There is your error.

Nobody is saying that sin, family influence/disfunction does not influence homosexual people. It sure does. 

However family influence/dysfunction or sin will not infuence your race, your skin hair or eye color, your height etc etc etc and it will not influence your sexual orientation either. 

It can and does influence things like violence as example. In short a kid who sees the mother being assaulted daily by the father is more likely to fall into the same patterns as a kid is where there is no such dysfunction present and so on.

Your base assumption is not covered by facts or science and so your conclusions are flawed

You are assuming here the base level that homosexuality is dysfunctional influence/behaviour. There is your error.

Do you understand the difference between fact and opinion? What is plausible and what is not?  To say I am in error does not prove than you are right and I am wrong.  

Let's take this back to the Bible.  Did God create homosexuality in the beginning as an option for human sexuality?   In nature sex between male and male or female and female serves no function that would "be fruitful and multiply"  It is an anomaly.

"Do you understand the difference between fact and opinion? What is plausible and what is not? To say I am in error does not prove than you are right and I am wrong. 

Let's take this back to the Bible. Did God create homosexuality in the beginning as an option for human sexuality? In nature sex between male and male or female and female serves no function that would "be fruitful and multiply" It is an anomaly."

Thats why homosexual behaviour has been studied in more than 1500 species because it is an anomaly yes?

Thats why there is not a single species out there in nature, which practices sex, where it has been shown that no homosexual behaviour exists yes? 

So all species which practice sex have an anomaly and homosexuality is "unnatural" even tho its all over in nature..... Ok.. makes sense.. duh

Furthermore your bias is showing as it has been proven that in nature homosexual monogamous couples do exist and do serve a function which even includes "be fruitful and multiply" for the species at large. (Many bird species as example sea gulls ducks goose penguin)

Regards

Furthermore your bias is showing..................

There really is not any bias.  There is this thing called compassion.  The problem is that there are so many groups of people who need love and compassion from people who know what it is to be raised up from sin by the study and application of God's word and the power of the Holy Spirit.  When you wrongly say that one thing is not a sin and does not apply to one group, but applies to everyone else you have created a huge problem. This is true bias.   Is Ron Woolsly a liar. Is Dennis Jernigan a liar.   I will leave it at that God is bigger than all our problems and loves everyone.  So no I do not have bias because we are all sinners. 

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