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Copied and pasted from AD Vindicate so that I might share with all of you.

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Blessings I feel the same as what is written by Ron Woolsey. That Gods power can pull us out of any sin or trouble. 

SCENARIO ONE

The year was 1999, and a denominational publishing house heard my conversion story from homosexuality, and asked me to submit my story for publication, as a resource for our denomination. I was given a deadline of four weeks.

After much prayer and fourteen-hour days of writing, I met their deadline. After many months, I finally called for a status report.

“Oh!  You haven’t received your manuscript? It was supposed to have been returned to you.”

“Why would it be returned?” I asked.

“It was rejected. The book committee decided they wanted a more balanced view.”

“Balanced view of what?” I asked. “I was asked to submit my story. Are you suggesting it is unbalanced?” I was alarmed.

“No, they just thought it would be better to have more stories to put into one book in order to present a balanced view,” came the reply.

I wondered aloud, “So stories of victory and success must be balanced out with stories of failure? Why?”

For fifteen years now I have continued to face the conundrum of the balanced view, this puzzle, as time after time I have been inhibited by the need to present a balanced view of the subject of homosexuality and the church. Ironically, I had to have my book published by an outside publisher who in turn sold it back to the denominational publisher to facilitate placing it in all the English-speaking ABCs around the world.

SCENARIO TWO

A few years ago I was invited to share my testimony at a conference on Marriage, Homosexuality and the Church. Sadly, I was discredited by one who promoted a view of “once gay, always gay,” and my presentation was therefore reduced to a mere interview. During the conference, this same individual replaced me on a panel addressing the university student body to present “a balanced view”. Critics and skeptics have repeatedly dismissed me as a perfectionist because I share of my personal experience of victory over homosexuality and how God offers salvation from sin rather than in sin.

Through the years, as opportunities to share were becoming less and less, I had made it a matter of prayer to ask God that whatever time I am given, the Lord will make it count. And at this specific conference on Marriage, Homosexuality and the Church, He did. In the closing presentation the speaker stated, “When Ron Woolsey stood here opening night, held up his Bible, and said that he found everything he needed in the word of God to turn and walk away from homosexuality, that set the tone for this entire conference.”

SCENARIO THREE

Once again I faced the conundrum of the balanced view when invited to speak at one of our denominational universities. This time the invitation was held up in committees for months, because of the very “controversial” nature of my story.

“But there are two sides to this issue…” they insisted.

“OK! So, why don’t we present the second side, God’s side…?”

I pointed out that I had graduated from their university, with a degree in theology, with honors, and that I was a conference pastor. Therefore, if straight/gay alliances are allowed on campus, why can’t I be trusted on campus with God’s perspective? Eventually approval came through, and the student body, filled with great interest and appreciation for my message, warmly received me.

SCENARIO FOUR

Two issues especially caught my attention at the recent North American Division Ministers Convention and break out sessions preceding the General Conference Session--women’s ordination and homosexuality. 

Though leadership had commissioned much study over the past few years, the “pro side” of the issue was promoted while the “con side” was ignored and even suppressed. The absence of a balanced view was noteworthy.

There were three different seminars addressing the LGBT issue. My ministry, “Coming Out Ministries”, was originally scheduled to have two of these sessions, but one was taken away due to “controversy”. Again, we prayed that the Lord would make whatever time we had, really count, and I truly believe He did.

However, when another seminar, with a very different message, was given more than twice the time we were given, many people who attended both sessions expressed confusion. I explained that both seminars were in fact presenting the same message, but only to a point. Both seminars presented a message of love and acceptance. However, Coming Out Ministries teaches the full gospel - that acceptance from God is conditional upon an entire surrender of the will, including the need of repentance, surrender, discipleship, transformation of character and victory over the sin of homosexuality, as with any other sin issue. Therefore, along these lines, the two seminars parted ways.

At the same North American Division Ministers’ Convention, a lesbian Adventist, a gay Adventist church elder, and the parents of a gay man married to another man presented testimonies. In fact, a gay Adventist was given time for a power point presentation denouncing all efforts to lead homosexuals to victory and transformation. Sadly, no testimony of victory was given. A psychologist even testified that she had never seen anyone overcome homosexuality. Some in attendance turned and waved at me, for I was redeemed 24 years ago and have been married now for 23 years and am the father of five children.

One of the organizers defended these presentations, saying that the gay issue has more than one ideology and therefore, they needed to present a balanced view. However, such a balanced view left many unsettled.

Do we need to present a balanced view by giving equal time to political correctness, conventional wisdom or social sciences?

Is not God’s view balanced in itself? God teaches us that “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (King James Version, Jeremiah 17:9). 

In 1 Corinthians 3:18-20 we read, “Let no man deceive himself.  If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF BALANCE

In Proverbs 20:23 we read, “Divers weights are an abomination unto the Lord; and a false balance is not good.” God help us if we are weighed in the balances, and found wanting. 

We read in Revelation 6:5, “And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.”

Sadly, “not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven…Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock” (Matthew 7:21-24).

Apparently, balance with God is not found between two opposing views, but rather between truth and acceptance, between the law and obedience, between God’s expressed will and our compliance.

You see, “we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isaiah 64:6). The only way we can be found righteous is in the Lord, (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16). Perfect balance is found within justification and sanctification, and within pardon/forgiveness and cleansing/transformation.

Christ’s righteousness is imputed, or attributed to us at the point of confession and repentance. In addition, Christ’s righteousness is imparted, or created in us through His grace, His transforming power, when we surrender to Him and to the process. 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Notice the balance here.

Micah 7:19 reads, “He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

Ellen White explains, “Satan stands at the head of all the accusers of the brethren; but when he presents the sins of the people of God, what does the Lord answer? He says, ‘The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?... They were therefore standing before God clothed with the garments of Christ’s righteousness…Every sin of which they had been guilty was forgiven, and they stood before God as chosen and true, as innocent, as perfect, as though they had never sinned” (RH August 29, 1893).

We read in Acts of the Apostles that “John saw the mercy, the tenderness and the love of God blending with His holiness, justice, and power” (White,489)

“When we study the divine character in the light of the cross we see mercy, tenderness, and forgiveness blended with equity and justice.” (White, 333).

Now this, I contend, is a balanced view.

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"There really is not any bias.  There is this thing called compassion.  The problem is that there are so many groups of people who need love and compassion from people who know what it is to be raised up from sin by the study and application of God's word and the power of the Holy Spirit.  When you wrongly say that one thing is not a sin and does not apply to one group, but applies to everyone else you have created a huge problem. This is true bias.   Is Ron Woolsly a liar. Is Dennis Jernigan a liar.   I will leave it at that God is bigger than all our problems and loves everyone.  So no I do not have bias because we are all sinners. "

See and here you are again claiming something which was never said.

You are however creating a conundrum on your own to get a self fulfilling prophecy.

First you declare homosexuality in general no matter what sinful.

Therefore all homosexual relations are sin even the monogamous committed loving and christ centered ones.

Followed up by the conundrum that someone who thinks not all homosexual relations are sinful declares adultery, based on your interpretation, as ok for homosexuals but not for heterosexuals. 

Sorry but your are self fulfilling your conundrum here. The underlying notion is not that promiscuity is ok for homosexuals but not for heterosexuals the underlying notion is that a monogamous committed loving and christ centered relationship is not sin and not adultery or promiscuity.

In regards to Ron Woolsey and the other persons you mentioned i did not state or say he s a liar why should i? He never stated something as fact which was wrong he just formulates his opinion and thats that. However i will say this about your article:

I find it funny that he is complaining about the Church finally trying to invite differing views to such conferences. For decades and even recently the Church held conferences etc and invited only those who 100% agree with the official position and now that this is changing a bit we hear him complain about it. If you want a sharing of viewpoints or a discussion than you need to invite more than just your side to the table. 

What i do want to say about these conferences is that i find it sad and deeply troublesome when the official Church lies on those conferences  and very clearly abuses science to let studies say something which they actually never did. If your (biblical) position is so weak that you have to rely on science studies already and than its getting weaker even more that you have to lie about these studies than your making the Church not only look bad and hypocrites you make the Church and the Conference a sinful place in that matter. Thats troublesome for me.

For Mr Woolsey personally i found it interesting that he very clearly said back a bit he was and is not actually healed or cured of the homosexual sexual orientation. He just denies himself to act on that orientation and does it "successfully" since 24 years according to his account. That made me wonder a bit how this is fair to his wife as example. Or how this is natural for him and so on. But those questions are to be addressed between him and God and not my place to judge.

Regards

See and here you are again claiming something which was never said.

You are however creating a conundrum on your own to get a self fulfilling prophecy.

First you declare homosexuality in general no matter what sinful.

Therefore all homosexual relations are sin even the monogamous committed loving and christ centered ones.

Nonsense.  You used the word bias and I took exception and explained there was not any bias or judgement.  

It is interesting for you to attach what your view is to mister Woolsey and the fact that you use the word "cure".  For a person to be healed of homosexuality would be a threat to your position.   Jesus cannot heal it because he created it?????????????? When and where do you find this in the Bible? My position is that it is the result of the fall of man and that homosexuality is not special, but is just another garden variety of sin due to the results of the fall of mankind. You have as of yet not proved me wrong with facts. 

Manuela are you now lowering humans to the level of other species in an attempt to excuse sodomy? 

Pastor T, 

Sorry, didn't have a chance to get back to you till now.  I appreciate that you are searching in this issue and I'm glad to help.  The text you are looking for is of course Galatians 3:27-29:  

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

You see you are never in automatic sin for what you are, you only sin for what you do.  Some of you guys maintain that gays wake up every day having already sinned just by existing.    But Galatians tells us that is not so.  If a gay person commits fornication or adultery he has sinned, but the sin is fornication or adultery, not simply being gay.  Hope this helped.

I hope that your implication is not that because the verse says there is no male or female that this somehow condones the homosexual lifestyle. If that is where you are headed I would caution you to no wrest scripture out of it's context to support this view because that is not the context of this verse or what this verse is saying.

Sexual sins do not cease to exist based on this verse. Homosexuality is as much a condition that needs repentence and victory over as porn addiction, fornication, habitual adultery, pedophelia, etc. And it is all because it is outside of God's plan.

I have heard argument after argument trying to present homosexuality as something other than what it is. But scripture cannot be twisted to convenence and the line upon line precept upon precept practice of allowing scripture to interpret itself cannot stand in this argument anymore than a serial killer could find support for their tendencies in scripture without wresting verses from their context.

I have heard some of the same arguments to support the idea that some individuals are born gay as I have for individuals who are driven to kill. One I have heard is that in their youth they always felt attracted to the same sex and that in their earliest years people suspected they may be homosexual. I have also read where some serial killers who have been caught and interviewed have said from their youth they felt the desire to kill an almost overwhelming urge to do so and often killed small animals before working up the courage to tak a human life. People who watched them grow up describe mean streaks and obssession with death at an early age. Playmates describe chilling memories of these people as children killing animals with no remorse.

But scripture says Thou shalt not kill as clearly and as surely as it says thou shalt not lay with mankind as thou dost with womankind.

Galatians doesn't change that, nor does it change or condone any other sinful condition in scripture.

What it's proper context does say, though is that regardless of ones position in this world or how you are esteemed in it (this at a time when Jews were believed to be superior to Gentiles/Greeks, men superior to women, and obviously the master superior to the enslaved) that if you belong to God, He is not placing you in a category based on that position. You are equal with fellow believers in His sight.

Pastor T, I respect you, but you will never convince me that abstinate homosexuals are still committing a sin.   Just being gay is not a sin.  

Klearly that would be true. I just wonder if you have seen such a person? 

Of course I have, there are lots of celibate people in the world, gay and straight.

Hi Manuela,
I am afraid you are beginning to sound like a broken record to me.
You are stating the obvious as though it was something new and strange.
Yes, all acts of homosexuality are a sin, and yes, that includes homosexual monogamous ones, no matter how Christ-like the individuals may believe themselves to.
I truly believe that you and Shannon are arguing for the sake of arguing now.
I say that because neither one of you are able to offer any kind of Biblical rationale to accept the act of homosexuality.
I have already challenged both of you to do so, and I would really like to see what rationale you come up with.
However, I grow more certain that neither of you has any argument and that is why you are both avoiding the challenge.

Hello PastorT,

again i accept your position on that issue but that does not mean that your is the only one or that its truth.

In regards to your "challenge" that is indeed a broken record as nobody here truly wants to look into the matter at all. It was posted multiple times already why i and many others with me do not belief in your narrative and every time it was posted and explained it all boiled down to more insults and ridicule along the way. So yes i am not going to rinse and repeat the same things over and over again when nobody truly wants to look beyond their perception.

Again use the search function i am sure you will find it there. 

Beside that no your position might be fine with the Churches position but it is hardly truth or the only one out there.

Have a nice day

Is Manuela arguing that murder is ok as long as it is out of love (honor killing for example)? 

"Hi Manuela, 

Given your statement above, I need to know what other truth exists apart from the one identified from the Bible?"

So you are saying every truth identified from the Bible is the ultimate truth for all time?

That is quite interesting considering christians identified a wide range of things over the time from the Bible as truth yet today we stand against those same truths and say "no thats not what the Bible actually says..."

So how about all those issues than were we Christian or even our Church once believed something which we do not hold as truth anymore?

Maybe just maybe your or the current "truth" today is not the actual truth and there is a different interpretation which reflects the true meaning better? Ever even considered that possibility?

Would not been the first time you know.. People once believed slavery to be moral and the truth from the Bible. Racial segregation the same and still present in our Church today. Polygamy was long practiced within Christianity and identified as truth from the Bible it still is practiced in some parts inside the Adventist Church. Amalgamation theories, Eugenics, Arian beliefs and so on all argued and identified as truth from the Bible. Or how about Child marriages? No? Maybe lets try Arranged marriages? 

And so on...

So no not everything we claim to be the truth as identified from the Bible will be or is the actual truth from God. We are in the end human beings prone to make errors including errors in translation and interpretation. 

Just look at women ordination. 40%+ of the Church delegates belief something else to be true than the majority both side identified their truth from the Bible... Or women elders were some influental pastor even still preach against the Churches position from the pulpit.

Seventh Day Adventists never asked for submission of conscience of its members quite the opposite. Its been only recently that we declare "creeds" and "ultimate truths" and ask the member to surrender their conscience which is a troubling and dangerous path and recent history shows that there is a pretty strong influence to be like the RCC.

HI Manuela,
You have again avoided answering the question put to you by simply challenging my question to you.
As I have said to you before not everything practiced in the Bible is a good example but we can still learn from it.
However, Bible principles remain constant.
I have refuted your claim that homosexuality is biblically accepted and made it clear to you that the act of homosexuality is a sin.
You claim that there is another truth.
What is this other Bible truth that you speak of?
I do you not believe that there is another Bible truth, but rather that you are unwilling to accept the particular Bible truth that the act of homosexuality is a sin.

Hi PastorT,

no i have not been avoiding your question neither your "challenge" i kindly asked you to use the search function.

Furthermore you asked "Given your statement above, I need to know what other truth exists apart from the one identified from the Bible?" for which i replied accordingly and still is true for that matter.

Throughout the time we have perfect examples of something the majority of scholars, pastors or christians overall believed to be the ultimate truth identified from the bible. Today we exclaim that they were wrong and the truth of that time is not actually the truth identified from the bible.

I gave you lots of examples what even the Adventist Church once believed to be the truth identified from the Bible which we declare as wrong today.

I do agree with you that the principle does not change. Jesus principle is love and repeated all over the bible. The message from the Church in this topic is not the message of love. So yes the Churches message is wrong.

Jesus once said: "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush." (Luke 6:43-44)

A message which drives our youth into suicide (EGW declared it to be the "ultimate sin")8,4 times more often than their non church-message affiliated peers is bearing bad fruits. The ultimate prize for sin is death we declare. At the moment our youth is paying the price for the sin of the Church with their life. That can not ever be the message of "love" or the fruit from a "good tree".

At the end of the day we can nitpick over each and every verse and there will be differences in hermeneutics. You argue a "plain reading" or "literal reading" with huge influences of "selective reading" to make it fit somehow preferable from a faulty translation.

I argue for a reading which takes historical and cultural aspects into account and does not cherry pick what we take and what we discard but takes all and applies it to all of the bible preferable not from faulty translations.

In the end we will still disagree but the fruits of your or the church message are self evident and self condemning. 

Regards

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