I have to tell someone that the testimonies of Jesus is the SOP but I have no idea how to explain that if the person asks. Can anyone please help?
To explain Rev 12:17 I would go to Rev 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
In Rev 22 the angel refers not to the brethren in general but to one particular group, the prophets.
Rev 22:8-9 "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
Prophecy is given via the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of prophecy.
Co 12:7-10 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
This is not just peculiar to the New Testament, it is a sign that has marked God's people from Old Testament times.
Gen 41:38 "And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?"
The Jewish Targum renders the same verse in a slightly different way: "And Pharaoh said to his servants, Can we find such a man like this is, in whom is the Spirit of Prophecy from the Lord?
Likewise, Num 11:25 "And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease."
Targum rendering: "And the LORD was revealed in the glorious Cloud of the Shekinah, and spake with him. And He made an enlargement of the (Spirit of) prophecy that was upon him, so that Mosheh lost nothing thereof, but he gave unto the seventy men, the elders: and it was that when the Spirit of prophecy rested upon them, they prophesied, and ceased not."
See also Num 27:18 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;"
Targum rendering, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Take to thee Jehoshua bar Nun, a man upon whom abideth the Spirit of prophecy from before the Lord, and lay thy hand upon him;"
There are two distinguishing marks of the end time church. They keep the commandments of God, all 10 Commandments, not 9 or 8 or 0; and they have a manifestation of Prophecy from the Spirit of God. From the beginning the SDA Church has claimed the fulfilment of these two marks: promotion of the unchanged 10 Commandments; and, the ministry of Ellen White.
Hope this helps.
thanks for your reply John. It really helped :)
In Rev 22 the angel refers not to the brethren in general but to one particular group, the prophets.
John this is not an accurate, the verse reads,
Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
The angel has with him the testimony of Jesus Christ, he was commissioned to make it known to John; in this way he identifies all brethren the prophets of old.
This testimony was given to John only.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John was a prisoner on Patmos, but God placed him there for a purpose;
for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
God put him there to give him this message. The word of God, and testimony of Jesus Christ is one in the same; it’s God’s Revelation that He gave unto Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches.
The testimony of Jesus doesn’t come out of the church, it is given to the seven churches. The responsibility of the church throughout the church ages is to keep (observe)the testimony, this is what the angel said.
…and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
By keeping the saying of this book we worship God, because God’s Revelation is the testimony of Jesus.
The word fellow-servant means 4889 sýndoulos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 1401 /doúlos, "bond-slave") – properly, a fellow bond-servant (slave), belonging to the same master.
Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 22:9 "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
Gene, the quote is really quite a simple one, it says, "thy brethren the prophets".
I say that this does not refer to all the brethren but to "thy brethren the prophets".
You say "in this way he identifies all brethren the prophets of old." Hard to understand what you are actually saying here or how you are disagreeing with me? The phrase is a simple one, "thy brethren the prophets" and has a simple, obvious meaning, your brothers in the faith who also prophecy. Please explain how it can mean anything other than the obvious?
John wrote the book of Revelation as he was inspired by God. How did all the other prophets write if it was not under inspiration from God? Same method? Same inspiration?
Gene said, "By keeping the saying of this book we worship God, because God’s Revelation is the testimony of Jesus."
So presumably when God has revealed things to other prophets that is also the testimony of Jesus? Or are you saying that Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah, etc., etc., were not given revelations from God and therefore were not prophets, not fellow brethren? Whose spirit moved the other prophets?
Your response is illogical, particularly as you completely ignore the use of the same phrase in the Targum. You appear to be suggesting that the angel carries with him the sole, only, testimony of Jesus to give to John whilst you quote the verse that tells us that the reason that John was on the Island of Patmos was because of the testimony of Jesus. Or are you suggesting that John had neither the word of God or the testimony of Jesus before he was put on the island, yet he was put on the island because he was preaching the gospel?
The emphasis isn’t on thy brethren the prophets, where you seem to place it, but on thy fellowservant.
The angel says to the apostle John, I am thy fellowservant, and the fellowservant of thy brethren the prophets, and them which keep the saying of this book.
Angels are servants of God, as prophets are and all who are call of God. The angel identifies closely as a fellowservant and acknowledges this relationship, and say to John; don’t worship me, I’m just like you; a servant, worship God.
Speaking of angels, Hebrews 1:14 says:
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
The word ministering means giving to serving.
Strong’s 3010 leitourgikós(an adjective, derived from 3011 /leitourgós, "sacred ministry/service to God") – divinely-authorized (service) referring to sacred ministering that performs what is acceptable to the all-holy God.
The angel is only expressing and acknowledging his relationship with all involved in service to God. Amos 3:7 says concerning God relationship with the prophet:
Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.
So presumably when God has revealed things to other prophets that is also the testimony of Jesus?
Only the apostle John received this testimony of the resurrected Jesus, which came through the Spirit of prophecy. The Spirit is the revealer of all prophecy because prophecy to us is reality, the vision from the mind of God.
1 Corinthians 2: 10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God… Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
When God reveals His secrets to the prophet, in God’s mind His vision has already been accomplished.
To the prophets of old, God revealed the secrets of His redemptive plan about Jesus; this was not the testimony of Jesus, though it came through the Spirit of Prophecy. This was God’s vision and plans concerning our salvation.
Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
The testimony of Jesus is revelation God gave the resurrected Jesus to show to his servants; the churches. This wasn’t given to anyone but John.
The apostle Paul himself received revelation and understanding, but he did not receive the testimony of Jesus.
Ephesians 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,…
Revelation 19:10 says
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
These have the testimony of Jesus because they have kept the saying of this book, as the angel expressed in Revelation 22:9. The phrase “that have” means to hold fast, keep. They keep the commandments of God, and they hold fast to the saying of the prophecy in the book given to John.
The bible doesn’t say the testimonies of Jesus as in many, it says the testimony of Jesus as in one testimony or witness.
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
The word of God and the testimony of Jesus is one and the same, God gave him (Jesus) his own Revelation, this is the testimony of Jesus; God’s Revelation.
…and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The writings of Ellen White is not the testimony of Jesus. As a SDA you may embrace this, but if you read what the bible says you will find that it is not; sorry):
…and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John. God’s Revelation, Jesus testimony was communicated to John via the Spirit.
9I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches:
God communicates through the Spirit. The testimony of Jesus Christ came through the Spirit of Prophecy, and it was about the Revelation that God gave Jesus to show to his servants.
The testimony of Jesus is Jesus’s testimony of what the Father show him, which was communicated by the angel to John. There’s only one testimony, and this is why we read in Revelation 1:5
…and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
In order for a testimony to be true, the witness must be a good faith witness.
Praise the Lord! I have been saying this for years but Adventists don't want to hear the truth as it clearly written in the Bible. Adventists twist what the Bible says in order to claim that they are the remnant. They don't need to do this, I do feel that the Adventists have the most truth because their teachings are closer to the Word of God than any other denomination out there, but claiming to have the Spirit of Prophecy because of Ellen White's writings (some of which are called the Spirit of Prophecy) is just silly. It's circular thinking. I could write a book and call it the Word of God and go round telling people that only those who have the Word of God (i.e. my book) will be saved. Great selling strategy if enough people were to believe me, but it's twisting the truth.
The Bible is clear. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy as given to John in the Book of Revelation.
This is the work of the enemy of souls. Has Adventists ever said that only SDAs are going to be saved?
You said: " I could write a book and call it the Word of God and go round telling people that only those who have the Word of God (i.e. my book) will be saved. Great selling strategy if enough people were to believe me, but it's twisting the truth."
No, but they claim to be the remnant because they have the writings of Ellen White which they say are the Spirit of Prophecy.
To understand the Remnant you must understand prophecy and spiritual things...
Revelation 12:17 has nothing to do with spirit of prophecy. In order to make sense of this verse, we need to understand the commandments of God.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So far there are two markers and they are important. One is that the church will be keeping the commandments of God, and the second marker is that that church will have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I think that you know from your own experience that having those two markers we ought to be able to fairly clearly identify who it is that we are looking toward.
This world attempting to make Sunday the day of worship, a day that everybody is off, because everybody it seems, agrees that Sunday is the day of worship, If that true church is keeping the fourth commandment, which they will be doing because they are identified as commandment keepers, you know that they will not be keeping Sunday as a day of worship. That is going to eliminate the overwhelming majority, perhaps a percentage of 98 or 99 percent of all of the groups that exist out there.
You know that the fourth commandment also includes the holy days as well, so when you put the weekly Sabbath together with the holy days, you have cleaned house considerably as to pointing out, making clear, where the true church is.
Notice how clearly this identifies. The dragon was enraged with the woman and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring. All of the offspring were not in one place. That needs to be taken into consideration, that one church is scattered, even in this narrow context they were at least in two different places—one that Satan was chasing after, the other apparently in a place where they were safe and secure, and made so by God.
I think that we can understand that to this day the church has not been taken to a place of safety, the church is scattered, perhaps in a world wide way. So that makes identification in a way a bit more difficult, but one of them is that they keep the commandments. That is one that you can rely upon.