Adventist Online

Compare the difference between the KJV and the NIV or NASB at Titus 2: 13 and 2 Peter 1: 1.

What do you see as the main difference? (The NKJV is the same as the NIV and NASB in these verses.)

1) At Titus 2: 13, the KJV says, "the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

How many people are spoken of here? Who is Jesus Christ according to this translation?

The NIV and most other modern translations read, "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Who is Jesus Christ according to this translation?

2) At 2 Peter 1: 1, the KJV reads, "the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

How many people are spoken of here?

Now compare the same verse as translated by most modern translations, as in NIV--

"the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

In these instances, the NIV and modern translations translate these verses correctly, showing clearly that Jesus Christ is our God.

The KJV translators did not translate those verses correctly because they didn't understand some rules of Greek grammar that we've learned since 1611.

These are among the two clearest statements in the entire Bible that Jesus Christ is God.

If you compare 2 Peter 1: 1 with 1: 11, you will see the same kind of construction. It calls Jesus "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." He is both Lord and Savior, the same reason grammatically that verse 1 declares Jesus to be both God and Savior. If verse 11 is translated correctly, then verse 1 is also, because both are identical constructions and hence take the same rules.

The New World Translation by the Jehovah Witnesses (who are Arians) shows that they also recognize that this verse teaches the deity of Christ. In order to avoid teaching this, they have added a definite article which does not belong in the phrase, "the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ." Thus they make it refer to two persons, the Father and Jesus, whereas the literal Greek [without the definite article] refers to only one person, Jesus, as both God and Savior.

Therefore, simply by studying these two verses closely as translated in most modern translations, the answer is clearly yes, Jesus Christ is God.

What are your thoughts? All responses welcome.

Views: 25

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Before expounding further what this particular text tries to point out, let's first take a look on the different versions:

International Standard Version (©2008)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

American King James Version
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

American Standard Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Bible in Basic English
Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

Darby Bible Translation
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

English Revised Version
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Webster's Bible Translation
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Weymouth New Testament
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

World English Bible
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;

Young's Literal Translation
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Looking for-with constant expectation (so the Greek) and with joy (Ro 8:19). This will prove the antidote to worldly lusts, and the stimulus to "live in this present world" conformably to this expectation. The Greek is translated, "waiting for," in Lu 2:25.

that-Greek, "the."

blessed-bringing blessedness (Ro 4:7, 8).

hope-that is, object of hope (Ro 8:24; Ga 5:5; Col 1:5).

the glorious appearing-There is but one Greek article to both "hope" and "appearing," which marks their close connection (the hope being about to be realized only at the appearing of Christ). Translate, "The blessed hope and manifestation (compare Note, see on [2533]Tit 2:11) of the glory." The Greek for "manifestation" is translated "brightness" in 2Th 2:8. As His "coming" (Greek, "parousia") expresses the fact; so "brightness, appearing," or "manifestation" (epiphaneia) expresses His personal visibility when He shall come.

the great God and our Saviour Jesus-There is but one Greek article to "God" and "Saviour," which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. "Of Him who is at once the great God and our Saviour."

Also "appearing" (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Joh 1:18; 1Ti 6:16), or even of "His glory" (as Alford explains it): it is invariably applied to Christ's coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti 1:10) the kindred verb "appeared" (epephanee), Tit 2:11, refers (1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 4:1, 8).

Also in the context (Tit 2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context.

Also the expression "great God," as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as "the true God" is predicated of Christ, 1Jo 5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. De 7:21; 10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity.

Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making "the great God" to be the Father, "our Saviour," the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to "the glory" of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God.
True, Jesus did not exist before the Father. But as been shown here, he didn't exist AFTER the Father either. The Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, are co-eternal and are one God. They have all been here forever. Impossible for our human minds to fathom.
The word "Son" when applied to Christ is not referring to how He came into existence. For a full answer to your question, Jaoslav, please study the following link:

Heb. 1: 3 says that Christ is a perfect copy of the Father's very being or nature. What do we say of someone who is a perfect copy of someone else? Today we say that they are like twins. Or sometimes we say they are "doubles," etc. So Christ is like a double or a twin. He Himself said that when we see Him, it is the same as seeing the Father.

Remember that when Jesus said, "I can do nothing on my own," He was on earth as a man totally dependent on the Father.

If you read Hebrews 1: 3, you will find that it says Christ "upholds all things [the whole universe] by the word of HIS [own] power." Compare this with Col. 1: 17 which says that ever since He created everything, Christ has been holding the whole universe together. (This is the meaning of the Greek original.)

Remember that John 1: 1 says that everything you can say about the Father, you can also say about the Word.

As for the throne, Rev. 5 and 22 show that "throne" belongs equally to the Father and to the Lamb. Remember what Jesus said, "All that the Father has belongs to me." Jesus said that the FAther wants everyone to give the same glory (or honor) to Christ as they give to the Father, and if we fail to give equal glory (or honor) to the Son, we really are not honoring the Father.
1 Cor.15:28...What is that to do with eternal but subject OR obedience...

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28 NIV

Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere. 1 Corinthians 15:28 NLT

I mean..Christ existed before all things but not before His Father.
John 1: 1 is saying that the Word and God the FAther were always in close and intimate association. That verse proves that the Word was a person (not merely an abstract idea or concept as some believe) and that this person was of the same essence and quality as the FAther. It means that everything we can say of the Father, we can also say of the Word, Jesus Christ. Thus, if we say the Father is eternal, we must say the same of Christ. This perfectly agrees with the Spirit of Prophecy, which says that there was never a time when the eternal Son of God was not in close fellowship with the eternal Father. See Ev. 615-617.

Therefore, John 1: 1 is saying the same thing that is taught in Hebrews 1: 3; Col. 2: 9. This is what Jesus Christ meant in John 10: 30-- "I and my Father are one." He is one in character, nature, and purpose with the Father.

The Bible says clearly that everything that was made was made by the Word, the pre-existent Christ. That means that the Father created nothing without Christ.

So how long was the Father all alone before He began to create the universe through Christ?

Remember that the FAther alone is without beginning. Therefore, no matter when you say Christ began to exist, it means that the FAther was absolutely and completely alone for endless ages without anything or anyone. Can you see this?
The pre-existent Christ was, in fact, Yahweh God. It was Christ who met Moses at the burning bush and declared His name to be "I AM THAT I AM." YHWH means "self-existent, eternal." Jesus Christ was self-existent and eternal. Compare John 8: 58 and Ex. 3: 14.

Also see 1 Cor. 10: 9. The people in the wilderness tempted Christ. Ps. 78: 18, 21 refers to Him as "God" and "Lord" [YHWH].

You said,

"Christ was Yahweh (in spiritual term) in a same way as my son was Jaroslav before he was conceived(in physical term). When Word was begotten and become separate person then He was no longer YAHWEH GOD."

Show clear Scripture for this. Where does the Bible teach this?

You said, "Father created everything even when it was through His Son."

They created everything together. The Bible specifically says that the Son, Jesus Christ, created the whole universe. It says that the Father did not create even a single thing apart from Christ. John 1: 3.

Please answer:

In Hebrews 1: 10, who does the Scripture say created the heavens and the earth?

Who is the "YOU, LORD"? And what is this persons called in Ps. 102: 12, 25-27?

You said,

"Christ said: 'if you do not believe I am He you will dye in your sins'".

In actuality, Christ said, "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

If you compare this with John 5: 58 and with the Septuagint at Ex. 3: 14, you will see that Jesus Christ is making an obvious reference to what He Himself said to Moses when He met Moses at the burning bush: "I AM THAT I AM."

"And GOD said to Moses, '.... Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

What name does God apply to Himself here? Bible answer: "I AM."

Now compare this with John 8: 24 and John 8: 58.

If you don't think the Jews understood exactly what He was saying, look at their response to Him in verse 8: 59. (Hint: they are NOT trying to kill Christ only because they thought He was saying He lived before Abraham. They realize He is claiming to be Deity. Later they will even tell Him that they planning to kill Him because He claims to be equal with God.John 10: 33.)

Who does Exodus 3: 14 say talked to Moses? "God."

This same being-- this God-- also said that He was the God of Abraham and the BIble calls Him "Yahweh Elohim." This was the pre-existent, self-existent Christ.

I don't think anyone would dispute your words here when you say that "There was always cooperation in everything between God and His Son including creation and salvation."

Of course. This is precisely what SDAs and the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible teach.


Site Sponsors


Adventist Single?
Meet other Single
Adventists here:
Join Free

USA members:

Support AO by
using this link:


© 2019   Created by Clark P.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service