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Many are confused over the nature of Christ, Some do not understand the mystery of redemption, That the Son of God, who is equal with the Father became a man and died for us. The verses in the NT that speak of His submission to the Father, "The only True God" are carried way beyond their true meaning. A humble submission to God will reveal the truth.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me. Isaiah 27:5. {CTr 213.1}

Imagine, if you can, yourself in Christ’s stead in the wilderness. There is no human voice you hear, but you are surrounded with demons under deceptive pretensions as angels from heaven, presenting in the most seducing attractions Satan’s wily insinuations against God, as he did to our first parents. His sophistry is most deceiving and artful in undermining your confidence in God and destroying your faith and your trust. He keeps your mind on a constant strain so that he can get one clue that he can use to his own advantage to allure you into a controversy, as if reading your thoughts to which you will not give utterance, just as he did Eve. {CTr 213.2}
He could not obtain from Christ one word to lead him on. The word, “It is written,” was spoken from point to point as he tested Him. But only the quotation of His own words that He had inspired the holy men of old to write would come from Christ’s lips. . . In our Lord’s great scene of conflict in the wilderness, apparently under the power of Satan and his angels, was He capable, in His human nature, of yielding to these temptations? . . . {CTr 213.3}
As God He could not be tempted, but as a man He could be tempted, and that strongly, and could yield to the temptations. His human nature must pass through the same test and trial Adam and Eve passed through. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. He was passing over the ground where Adam fell. He was now where, if He endured the test and trial in behalf of the fallen race, He would redeem Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall, in our own humanity. {CTr 213.4}
A human body and a human mind were His. He was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He was subject to disappointment and trial in His own home, among His own brethren. He was not surrounded, as in the heavenly courts, with pure and lovely characters. He was compassed with difficulties. He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. . . . {CTr 213.5}
Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 6, pp. 110-112). {CTr 213.6}

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You still are confusing Christs earthly ministry and His human condition as He submitted to the Father in all things as it was necessary for Him to do while on earth. Christ had two natures, the Divine and the human. The Son of God and the son of man.

What you are doing is selectively noting those verses and EGW quotes that seem to "prove" your position. This is very faulty Bible exegesis and an improper use of the Spirit of Prophecy.

Brother Manou, I'm afraid you are only hurting yourself by such a position and view. This view is well outside the established beliefs of the 7th day Adventist church as well.
You are also loose on the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

What do you think "He" means? he is a separate person.

In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}
You said:
"The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each." {8T, p. 268} When we seek to destroy the relationship of Father and Son by saying it is a metaphor, role-play, then we indeed have two gods or two sources however when we understand that indeed Christ was truly the Son of God then the truth is unfolded to us.

Have you been reading Restitution Ministries?

What are you talking about? Role play? Metaphor? You seem to think the Father created the Son in His divinity too, in that you deny the Bible and EGW. You are confusing the human side of Christ with His divinity, then you speculate on things that God has not said.

Why are you quoting Ellen White that is so clear, then you turn around and deny what she says? I've seen this before, you are not the only one who does this. We need to take God at His word, not twist it into something else.
Manou Pierre
you do a big mistake because with your interpretations you will need to cancel all spirit of prophety and to missinterpret all bible verses about Trinity.
You must read more careful what you quote here from EGW and to see that she talk about Jesus as CHRIST and is a BIG difference between that two name Jesus and Christ.
EGW use in many visions the word God s Son or she use the word CHRIST to explain or to descriebe anything about Jesus BEFORE He was coming in our world to be a son... but that is only because she was living AFTER the time God Jesus bacame the role as Son of God, Son oif man (and also as CHRIST to His baptism).
Even in vision she saw Jesus alredy in the role as Son of God that is because alredy AFTER the sin the Trinity started with the idea to have different roles, one of Trinity started to became the role as Father because the other need it to became a son and son cannot exist witotuh father and the father is not a father if he dont have a son.
But that roles started to be aplyed (practical) ONLY from the time God Jesus was coming in our world.
Alredy from the time the sin started to exist in Adam, Jesus alrerdy decided to come to die to the cross and Jesus said to all His angels that He will have to come to die to the cross. And with that we can say clearly that the lamb was sacrificed alredy imediately AFTER Adam s sin (because the cross was imediately after sin decided... and the time from that decision till He was practicaly to the cross.. is only a TIME and we know that for God 1000years is like a day.
That is what also Revelation book say about the lamb s book what was sacrificied BEFORE to made the world..
But before to exist the sin, the role as Father and as Son was never existing in in heaven and we will never find any bible verse in the Old Testament to support any ideas like that..
And ask yourself HOW was posible for God Father to be all time existing as Father if Jesus was not all time existing as son. But if Jesus was all time existing WITOUTH begining of time then He cannot be a Son. And WHY John chapter 1. say: in the begining was the WORD. WHY begin with the WORD (Jesus) and WHY dont say in the begining was God ?. But i will not use that say that Jesus was existing as first. I will say that all 3 Persons was all time existing WITOUTH begining of time.
The bible say clearly that from the time He will come in our world in the role as MAN He WILL BE CALLED SON.because He was coming to be a Son and not as God to demonstrate that God can keep the Law.
Luke 1:32 He will be great, and "WILL BE CALLED THE SON of the Highest; and the LORD God will give Him the throne of His father David.
But Jesus was all time GREAT and in the NT say that we have only ONE LORD and that is Jesus.
35... that Holy One who is to be born "WILL BE CALLED"the Son of God.
You will NEVER find in the OT that God had a son... ONLY in the NT you begin with that two verses you begon to find that God had a Son.
And in Hebrew 1:5 say: “ I WILL BE to Him a Father. And He SHALL BE to Me a Son.
The word I WILL and the word SHALL be... say clearly clearly about FUTURE and let us to see clearly that BEFORE nobody was Father and nobody was Son.
Jesus became the second name as CHRIST only to His baptism.but before He had only the name Jesus (which is to translate with God help).
If EGW say: God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." --{8T, p. 268}
That is very clearly WHY she said like that, because she talk about Jesus as CHRIST, and as SON but the bible say clearly WHEN He started to became the name as CHRIST and WHEN He started to be a Son.
You will NEVER find a bible verse in the Old Testament to say that BEFIRE to come in our world as MAN God had a son and you will never find in the Old Testament any name for God s son. But you will find alot of bible verse what say that alredy after Abrahaam time the peoples called the Name of the Lord and that LORD was Jesus... and you will find that in ALL Old Testament in all bible verse where you see God or Lord that was the Lord Jesus, In New testament tell us clearly that we have ONLY ONE LORD and that is the Lord Jesus.
You will never land in complications if you will start to see the TRINITY all time you read the word God.
For example John 3:16 “"God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"
If you see the TRINITY in that word GOD, you will see that GREAT GIFT was given by God Father, by God Holy Ghost and also God Jesus gave Himself to die to the cross.
But if you will see only God Father in that word GOD then you will have a problem coz in the gold verse, in that most important bible verse is not anymore to see God Holy Ghost and also God Jesus is not anymore to see that He gave Himself to be a son of God and son of man. And that verse sound like God sold His son and the son dont had any other chance as to go to do where the father push him to do.
You quote:EGW:
“All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.” {DA 21.2}
You see... she use again the word CHRIST even Jesus became the name as Christ only to His baptism and not before to come in our world.
But even John chapter 1 make clear that WORD God Jesus was there in heaven in the begining in the role as WORD (not as son) and as WORD He mediated between Trinity and God s creatures.
But will be very difficult for us to understand Jesus s role as MEDIATOR in heaven before to come in our world as God s son and man s son.. will be good if we will understand even now His role as Mediator for us in heaven,
That God Jesus Mediator became also role as angel Michael for angels and Man for men. And in that quote EGW talk about Jesus as CHRIST (even Jesus became the second name as CHRIST only to His baptism).
With my poor english is hard to explain you.. but i hope you understand that EGW use the word Christ and th word Son of God to explain visions what was happend BEFORE God Jesus was coming in our world but she use the word CHRIST and Son of God because she was alredy living in a time when Jesus bacam alredy a Son and Man. And i ask me WHAT other words should use if God never relevated His name what He had before to come in our world and to became the name Jesus. Only in the new testament the bible tell us that God s name from the old testament.. and the name of the one who said I AM is Jesus. But all 3 Peersons of the Trinity have the right to use the word "I AM" because all 3 Personalityes are God witouth begining of time. But the word I AM is not a name, and we know that from revelation book that God will relevate us His real name ONLY there in heaven,
Yes, the bible make clear that is ONLY ONE GOD and only one Father and only one Son of God.
But when you say the word God you must see all 3 Persons as all time existing as God (Trinity) then you must see that for salvation plan one of them started to exist as only one Father and the other one as only one son but even the Trinity started to became new roles.... the Tinity continue to exist also as ONLY ONE GOD what will have forever a Father and a Son.... because Jesus will remain forever God and man and God s son (even He was never a son before to come in our world) and the Father will remain forever Father.(even He was never a Father before God Jesus need it to became the role as Son of God and Son of man....
You said:

"I would like to make clear that I do not believe that Christ was created. He was not created but begotten of the Father."

We need to be clear on the difference between Christs humanness and His Divinity. His human side was begotten, or created by the Father as He laid down His Divinity to become a man.


I "Christ came to earth as God in the guise of humanity." -Bible Commentary Volume 6 p 1053

Nearly two thousand years ago, a voice of mysterious import was heard in heaven, from the throne of God, "Lo, I come." "Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me. . . . Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God." Heb. 10:5-7. In these words is announced the fulfillment of the purpose that had been hidden from eternal ages. Christ was about to visit our world, and to become incarnate. He says, "A body hast Thou prepared Me." Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form.

This great purpose had been shadowed forth in types and symbols. The burning bush, in which Christ appeared to Moses, revealed God. The symbol chosen for the representation of the Deity was a lowly shrub, that seemingly had no attractions. This enshrined the Infinite. The all-merciful God shrouded His glory in a most humble type, that Moses could look upon it and live. So in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, God communicated with Israel, revealing to men His will, and imparting to them His grace. God's glory was subdued, and His majesty veiled, that the weak vision of finite men might behold it. So Christ was to come in "the body of our humiliation" (Phil. 3:21, R. V.), "in the likeness of men." In the eyes of the world He possessed no beauty that they should desire Him; yet He was the incarnate God, the light of heaven and earth. His glory was veiled, His greatness and majesty were hidden, that He might draw near to sorrowful, tempted men.

God commanded Moses for Israel, "Let them make Me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Ex. 25:8), and He abode in the sanctuary, in the midst of His people. Through all their weary wandering in the desert, the symbol of His presence was with them. So Christ set up His tabernacle in the midst of our human encampment. He pitched His tent by the side of the tents of men, that He might dwell among us, and make us familiar with His divine character and life. "The Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the Only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." John 1:14, R. V., margin. -Desire of Ages p 23.1-3
The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the express image of his person, and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind. (EGW, RH, July 9,1895, par. 13)

Notice this passage is talking speaking of Christ before He came to earth. The Father gave his only begotten Son, and sent him to earth

Notice the words of Jesus:

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world, and go to the Father. John 16:27-28

A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, {EGW, ST , May 30,1895, par. 3}

Let the reader ask himself these questions: why is there no statement or verse that says Christ is not begotten? Why does the Spirit of Prophecy make a distinction between “creation” and “begotten”? if He was never begotten? Why do people continue to ignore the plain testimony that God has given regarding His Son?

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and everyone that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him” 1 John 5:1
Can you show me where it says that His human side was begotten and that is how he is the Son of God?
The word begotten proves it. Divinity cannot be begotten.

Quick definitions (begotten)

▸ adjective: (of offspring) generated by procreation ("Naturally begotten child")

From the Greek word for "begotten."


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

Who is the Word?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is God the Son.


No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18. {TMK 38.1}

Christ came to the world to reveal the character of the Father and to redeem the fallen race. The world's Redeemer was equal with God. His authority was as the authority of God. He declared that He had no existence separate from the Father. The authority by which He spoke and wrought miracles was expressly His own, yet He assures us that He and the Father are one. . . . {TMK 38.2}
Jesus had imparted a knowledge of God to patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The revelations of the Old Testament were emphatically the unfoldings of the gospel, the unveiling of the purpose and will of the infinite Father. Through the holy men of old, Christ labored for the salvation of fallen humanity. And when He came to the world it was with the same message of redemption from sin, and restoration to the favor of God. {TMK 38.3}
What speech is to thought, so is Christ to the invisible Father. He is the manifestation of the Father, and is called the Word of God. God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. {TMK 38.4}
As legislator, Jesus exercised the authority of God; His commands and decisions were supported by the sovereignty of the eternal throne. The glory of the Father was revealed in the Son; Christ made manifest the character of the Father. He was so perfectly connected with God, so completely embraced in His encircling light, that he who had seen the Son had seen the Father. His voice was as the voice of God. . . . He says, "I am in the Father, and the Father in me." "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:11; Matthew 11:27; 14:9). {TMK 38.5}
Brother Gene.

In Proverbs 30:4 an interesting question is asked:

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell me?


“The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each. [Hebrews 1:1-5 quoted] God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.” {EGW, 8T 268}

Christ is not the Son of God just as a result of sin (to play a role in the plan ofredemption). Christ was the Son of God long before sin ever occurred and long before the plan of redemption took place. Mrs. White applies the birth of Christ long before the incarnation, as we saw plainly above. Let us have another testimony from her pen:

It seems like you are limiting the word “begotten” to the plan of redemption Brother Gene. Notice
Christ was the Son of God; He had been one with Him before the angels were called into existence.” {EGW, PP 38}

This makes Christ the Firstborn of heaven. Notice: “The dedication of the first-born had its origin in the earliest times. God had promised to give the First-born of heaven to save the sinner.” {EGW, DA 51}

Therefore, we rightly conclude that Christ is the Firstborn of heaven. He was born first in heaven, and then later He came to earth to be born again! When He was born on earth He became the Son of God in “a new sense”. Notice:

“In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race.” {EGW, 1SM 226,
227}

This means that Christ was already the Son of God before the incarnation and the execution of the plan of redemption. You see, He was the Son of God by birth, and He became the Son of man also by birth. That is why in His incarnation He gained the title of the Son of God in a new sense. He must have had it in an original or ‘old’ sense, or there is no sense in the prophet’s words. The only way He could already be a Son is through His birth before all creation. (Please look at Proverbs 8:22-30, which should be understood just as it reads). It is plain from the evidence that Mrs. White did not just speak of Christ as the begotten of God in the context of the plan of redemption.
Christ is the God of the Old Testament, He is the God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

This great purpose had been shadowed forth in types and symbols. The burning bush, in which Christ appeared to Moses, revealed God. The symbol chosen for the representation of the Deity was a lowly shrub, that seemingly had no attractions. This enshrined the Infinite. The all-merciful God shrouded His glory in a most humble type, that Moses could look upon it and live. So in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, God communicated with Israel, revealing to men His will, and imparting to them His grace. God's glory was subdued, and His majesty veiled, that the weak vision of finite men might behold it. So Christ was to come in "the body of our humiliation" (Philippians 3:21, R. V.), "in the likeness of men." In the eyes of the world He possessed no beauty that they should desire Him; yet He was the incarnate God, the light of heaven and earth. His glory was veiled, His greatness and majesty were hidden, that He might draw near to sorrowful, tempted men. {DA 23.2}
The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view clearly the personality and individuality of each." {8T, p.268}.

Once I again I would like to state that Jesus is God essentially and is fully divine, I am in no way denying that and I also do not deny the fact that Christ is the only begotten Son of God;. It is not a role play, or a metaphor, prophecy etc.. Notice:

“Angels were expelled from heaven because they would not work in harmony with God. They fell from their high estate because they wanted to be exalted. They had come to exalt themselves, and they forgot that their beauty of person and of character came from the Lord Jesus. This fact the [fallen] angels would obscure, that Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and they came to consider that they were not to consult Christ.” {EGW, TDG 128}

Brethren if you feel that it is lessening Christ if we confess that He is the only begotten of God! It is not in the smallest degree lowering of His divine heritage and status. On the other hand, it is those who side with Lucifer in trying to obscure the fact that Christ is indeed the only begotten Son of God that are lowering, demeaning, and robbing Christ of His divine heritage! There is no greater status to ascribe to Christ than that which His own Father declared “This is my beloved Son”. Let all people beware lest they make Christ less than what He really is by robbing His heritage. Let all men beware lest they be found on the side of the great arch-rebel in denying the divine Sonship of Christ. You have been warned. He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear.


“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.” Exodus 23:21, 22

In this verse the Father (Jehovah) is speaking about His Son (called Angel here) and saying that He has placed His name in His Son. This is how this verse is plainly understood.

“In all the stupendous events of that deliverance the mind of Jehovah was represented in Jesus.” {J. S. White, Christ and the Sabbath, p. 11}

The Bible also tells us how Christ obtained that name:

“Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” Hebrews 1:4

Christ inherited (by birth) a better name than all the angels.

"As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. " {8T, p.265}
Manou.I'm buried in schoolwork all weekend through Monday. (perhaps Sabbath I can make some response to your posts) I appreciate your search for God's truth.

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