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Many are confused over the nature of Christ, Some do not understand the mystery of redemption, That the Son of God, who is equal with the Father became a man and died for us. The verses in the NT that speak of His submission to the Father, "The only True God" are carried way beyond their true meaning. A humble submission to God will reveal the truth.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me. Isaiah 27:5. {CTr 213.1}

Imagine, if you can, yourself in Christ’s stead in the wilderness. There is no human voice you hear, but you are surrounded with demons under deceptive pretensions as angels from heaven, presenting in the most seducing attractions Satan’s wily insinuations against God, as he did to our first parents. His sophistry is most deceiving and artful in undermining your confidence in God and destroying your faith and your trust. He keeps your mind on a constant strain so that he can get one clue that he can use to his own advantage to allure you into a controversy, as if reading your thoughts to which you will not give utterance, just as he did Eve. {CTr 213.2}
He could not obtain from Christ one word to lead him on. The word, “It is written,” was spoken from point to point as he tested Him. But only the quotation of His own words that He had inspired the holy men of old to write would come from Christ’s lips. . . In our Lord’s great scene of conflict in the wilderness, apparently under the power of Satan and his angels, was He capable, in His human nature, of yielding to these temptations? . . . {CTr 213.3}
As God He could not be tempted, but as a man He could be tempted, and that strongly, and could yield to the temptations. His human nature must pass through the same test and trial Adam and Eve passed through. His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own. He was passing over the ground where Adam fell. He was now where, if He endured the test and trial in behalf of the fallen race, He would redeem Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall, in our own humanity. {CTr 213.4}
A human body and a human mind were His. He was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . He was subject to disappointment and trial in His own home, among His own brethren. He was not surrounded, as in the heavenly courts, with pure and lovely characters. He was compassed with difficulties. He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. . . . {CTr 213.5}
Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 6, pp. 110-112). {CTr 213.6}

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You make a good point that Truth is progressive. Our early pioneers had many strange ideas originally. Then as time went on ... Truth was revealed. I for one would not wish to go back to the original ideas of our pioneers before Truth was revealed.
What were the original ideas in contrast to the truths revealed?

You have stated many times that you hold to the FB of the Advenist Church. I ask you so whatever the church deems truth, is that what you deem as truth?
My beliefs are compatible with the 28 Fundamentals. Yes. You are correct. I haven't found another church that matches my beliefs.
The issue isn't about denominations; for these are only systems that have been erected. It was hard for the pioneers of the Adventist church to set up a organization. Some stated as soon as we organize we would become a part of babylon, and at that time, they did not have a creed. The FB have taken on the lion like jaws of a creed. I ask you, when a Laodicean repents, is he still a Laodicean? I know that there are seven churches, however I encourage to study into it more.

People suppose that they become a part of the body of Christ, when they join an organized church system.
Again I do not deny that the Holy Spirit is a person, It is the personal presence of Christ and the Father. It is not an impersonal force.

“Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.” Jeremiah 23:24.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” John 14:23; Revelation 3:20

“In giving us His Spirit, God gives us Himself, making Himself a fountain of divine influences, to give health and life to the world.” {EGW, 7T 273}

“But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.”
{DA 21.2}1898


The Lord says this because He knows it is for our good. He would build a wall around us, to keep us from transgression, so that His blessing and love may be bestowed on us in rich measure. This is the reason we have established a school here. The Lord instructed us that this was the place in which we should locate, and we have had every reason to think that we are in the right place. We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, unseen by human eyes; that the Lord God is our Keeper and Helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind.”{E. G. White, Sermons and Talks Volume Two, pp. 136, 137} {Also appearing in Manuscript Releases Vol. 7, p. 299}

Mrs. White is not talking of more than one individual, for she is using the singular pronoun “he” all through. If she was talking of more than one she would have used “they” rather than “he”. Therefore, she is talking only of one person; “The Lord”. It is “The Lord” who is our keeper, not someone else. The Lord is the one who hears every word. It is the Lord who is “unseen by human eyes”. And even though He is there by His Holy Spirit yet He is as much a real person as if He were here physically! This is the meaning of that statement. His personal presence is His person, which is as much a person as He is a person.

Christ walks unseen through our streets. With messages of mercy He comes to our homes. With all who are seeking to minister in His name, He waits to co-operate. He is in the midst of us, to heal and to bless, if we will receive Him.” {E. G. White, The Ministry of Healing, p. 107}

Remember that Jesus is beside you wherever you go, noting your actions and listening to your words. Would you be ashamed to hear his voice speaking to you, and to know that he hears your conversation?” {E. G. White, The Youth’s Instructor, February 4, 1897 par. 3}

“That Christ should manifest Himself to them, and yet be invisible to the world, was a mystery to the disciples. They could not understand the words of Christ in their spiritual sense. They were thinking of the outward, visible manifestation. They could not take in the fact that they could have the presence of Christ with them, and yet He be unseen by the world. They did not understand the meaning of a spiritual manifestation.” {E. G. White, The Southern Work, September 13, 1898 par. 2}

Therefore, we rightly conclude that the Holy Spirit is the unseen personal presence of the Father and the
Son. The Holy Spirit is the unseen person of Christ.

"We will come and make our abode with him."
I find this to be an interesting and long discussion to which is some seeming suptle reachings, which I have seen before ... the two main errors or falshoods taught that I percieve here are the pretention that man can understand things the God of Heaven has not revealed to humanity ... the spirit of prophesy undoughtedly defies such reasoning ... Steven has done a good job I think of trying to refute this... My brother ... how is it that you were so suptle in your teachings at first .... the second is that of the belief that the Son of God was actually born at some unknown perod in the past from the father / Ancient of days as spoken in the book of Daniel ch.7 .... which is not taught in the spirit of prophesy ...and the teaching that there is no spirit existing as a person ...to this Sis White said that it would destroy the very Christian economy ... I have seen these statements that refute this openly as she was presented with these same sentiments and will quote them if need be ....will search it out ..If you wish to know more on this subject by EGW search the cd library on the subject of the God Head ... you will find plenty of what you need it's all there ... .but what good will it do ? I have shown and others have shown uniquivicably this is wrong .... and they still reject the testimonies as well as the word of the Bible .... for the human language is not adaquite to to explain the existance of the Living God ...we have been told that there are three heavenly personalities ....not mentioned as theTrinity but the Heavenly Trio .... you have no authoity ot try to go beyond what we have been given to understand about the living God ...but by faith we believe in Him unto salvation .and accept him at his word... as time goes on the deliniation between truth and error gets more suptle and difficult to discern .... but praise be to God !! if our belief in God is laid upon a simple foundation (Jesus ) and built from there ( the word of God ) ... and with an honest heart .... we can discern the truth !! God has promised !! we can argue on this issue until the cows come home and then how many would we have been able to bring to Jesus ? I pray for the unity Jesus Prayed for in John 17 that they might know Him (the Father ) and Jesus/Mesiah whom thou hast sent ...

This thing you said that is true .... the truth is of all importance now the truth as it is in Jesus.

3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

He has different delusions prepared to affect different minds. Some look with horror upon one deception, while they readily receive another. Satan deceives some with Spiritualism. He also comes as an angel of light and spreads his influence over the land by means of false reformations. The churches are elated, and consider that God is working marvelously for them, when it is the work of another spirit. The excitement will die away and leave the world and the church in a worse condition than before. {EW 260.1}
I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and lead them to think that God is still working for the churches. But the light will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take their stand with the remnant. {EW 261.1}

This God had issue has been a nasty side track from the teachings of salvation and a fanaticism that is at times so suptle and has entraped some of my closest friends .... on actually wrot a book on this God head thory and thought it was the latterrain ..... we can't teach the three angels message until we defign the Holy Ghost ? ....No way !!
"the Son of God was actually born at some unknown perod in the past from the father / Ancient of days as spoken in the book of Daniel ch.7 .... which is not taught in the spirit of prophesy" --Quote TLafferty

‘A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten on,"-- not a son by reation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person. . .’ (ST, May 30, 1895 ) (p.12)

"and the teaching that there is no spirit existing as a person"--Quote TLafferty

The Holy Spirit is the unseen person of Christ.

That Christ should manifest Himself to them, and yet be invisible to the world, was a mystery to the disciples. They could not understand the words of Christ in their spiritual sense. They were thinking of the outward, visible manifestation. They could not take in the fact that they could have the presence of Christ with them, and yet He be unseen by the world. They did not understand the meaning of a spiritual manifestation.” {E. G. White, The Southern Work, September 13, 1898 par. 2}

“While Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, He is still by His Spirit the minister of the church on earth.” {Desire of Ages, p. 166}.

How many ministers are mentioned here? Is it not only the one minister, the Lord Jesus? Yes, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5. This one mediator works on two levels. He is in heaven in the flesh interceding before the Father, and He (the same one: Jesus) is in our hearts in the Spirit. But it is the one and the same Jesus in both cases who is in heaven and who is also in our hearts. (see Colossians 1:27; 3:11, Galatians 1:16, John 6:56, John 14:17, 18, 20, 23, John 15:4, John 17:23, Romans 8:10 etc.)



One of the most significant statements by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in recent times regarding advancement in light is that of William G. Johnsson, Editor of the Adventist Review.

"Adventist beliefs have changed over the years under the impact of ‘present truth’. Most startling is the teaching regarding Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord...... the Trinitarian understanding of God, now part of our fundamental beliefs, was not generally held by the early Adventists." - Adventist Review, Jan 6, 1994. p.10.

Of such significance is this change that George Knight, Andrews University Seminary professor made the following statement in Ministry, the official Seventh-day Adventist journal for ministers:

"Most of the founders of Seventh-day Adventism would not be able to join the church today if they had to subscribe to the denomination’s Fundamental Beliefs. More specifically, most would not be able to agree to belief number 2, which deals with the doctrine of the trinity." - Ministry, October 1993, p. 10.

Interestingly enough, Sister White wrote:

Be not deceived; many will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. We have now before us the alpha of this danger. The omega will be of a most startling nature. {Selected Messages Book 1, page 197}

Notice that she said many, not some as the scriptures proclaim, she is saying that many will depart from the faith in connection to the omega.

If you are honest, I encourage you to watch: The Omega of Deadly Heresies

http://www.restorationministry.com/multimedia.html
In the light of your statement ... I have a very serious delema ... Jesus said that what you say or do to Him or His Father in heaven is forgiveable !! but what we say or do in regards to ( against) The Holy Spirit / ( the Truth !! for they are spirit and Life ... ) is not forgiveable in this world or the next ...! I fear to go to the level you are willing to go to defign things that are not given to us to understand ...Can mortal men find out God ? Can any speak knowlegeably of this really ? But the things that are given to us and our children are ours and to our fathers' I will no longer comment on this particular thread .... in regards to the nature of The Sprit or the Heavenly Trio .. for I cannot spend any more time on it .... It is a destraction the nature of Jesus is a Salvatoinal Issue and is paramount to the overcoming of sin for if we are married to Jesus / Messiah we are indeed commited to be faithful to him til death !! ... TL ..
"Jesus said that what you say or do to Him or His Father in heaven is forgiveable !! but what we say or do in regards to ( against) The Holy Spirit / ( the Truth !! for they are spirit and Life ... ) is not forgiveable in this world or the next" Quote TLafferty

The unpardonable sin is not a sudden word or action it is continual refusal to believe the truth, to attribute the work of good to evil agencies. It is unpardonable because we cut off the way for Christ to impress us to repent. Thus we lose our desire to be reconciled to God. This results in us not desiring pardon, thus it becomes unpardonable.

"The last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so," said Jesus, "shall it be also unto this wicked generation." There are none so hardened as those who have slighted the invitation of mercy, and done despite to the Spirit of grace. The most common manifestation of the sin against the Holy Spirit is in persistently slighting Heaven's invitation to repent. Every step in the rejection of Christ is a step toward the rejection of salvation, and toward the sin against the Holy Spirit.

In rejecting Christ the Jewish people committed the unpardonable sin; and by refusing the invitation of mercy, we may commit the same error. We offer insult to the Prince of life, and put Him to shame before the synagogue of Satan and before the heavenly universe when we refuse to listen to His delegated messengers, and instead listen to the agents of Satan, who would draw the soul away from Christ. So long as one does this, he can find no hope or pardon, and he will finally lose all desire to be reconciled to God." DA 324

"Concerning the Pharisees and Sadduccees. "But they charged Christ with being in league with hell. Their talent of speech was used to abuse the world's Redeemer, and the recording angel wrote their words in the books of heaven. They attributed to satanic agencies the holy power of God, manifested in the works of Christ. Thus the Pharisees sinned against the Holy Ghost. Stubborn, sullen, iron-hearted, they determined to close their eyes to all evidence, and thus they committed the unpardonable sin. "Review and Herald, January 18, 1898, par. 7

Those who reject Christ, reject their only hope of happiness in this life, and cut themselves off from the hope of eternal life. Every step of rejection of Christ is a step toward the rejection of the goodness of salvation, and toward the sin against the Holy Spirit. It is evident that not one who stands under the banner of Jesus Christ, who serves him as a faithful soldier, has committed this sin. The sin against the Holy Ghost is not confined to any one period of time, or limited to any one generation. The Jewish nation who rejected Christ committed the unpardonable sin, but by taking the same course that they took in refusing the invitation of mercy, we may commit the same error. The Youth's Instructor , August 8, 1895, par 3

"In this our day men have placed themselves where they are wholly unable to fulfil the conditions of repentance and confession; therefore they cannot find mercy and pardon. The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not lie in any sudden word or deed; it is the firm, determined resistance of truth and evidence." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 913, par. 1

I have never been given the testimony to bear to any one, "You have committed the unpardonable sin." God never told any one to say to a fellow being, "You have committed the unpardonable sin." He has not given Brother Nelson this message to bear to Elder Breed, Elder Irwin, or Elder A. T. Jones. --Review and Herald, July 30, 1901, paragraph 5

"I fear to go to the level you are willing to go to defign things that are not given to us to understand" Quote TLafferty

The things that are revealed are for us and our children. Christ came to reveal the Father to us, and Himself. It is not a dangerous thing to know our Father and His Son.
Yes but Pierre we are speaking of their character ... not there characteristics ... ie how they came to be and such these thngs were not given to us and are not essential to Salvation and are a waist of precious time .... the Glory of God is to be understood in the light that we may copy or become like in character to them .... LOVE ... as it is defigned by Jesus... and manifest in his life ... It is ludecrous to argue any more on the point of Jesus origin .... before his birth here as it is not of present import and we may not be saved by his characteristics ... oh don't you see My brother I am not here just to spar with you and argue... You say many things...that are well stated ... but not all ... I only seek to help make things as clear as I can and do it as simply as possible ...so a child can understand ... and I believe that is our calling ... and to love as He did ....By His grace ... I want to honor Jesus here ... not me and not .to overly uplift others but before the throne of the only one who can save them for the salvation of the soul .... God Bless and Happy Sabbath .... TL ....
II hope it is shown by my words, that I too, am not trying to dispute or argue, but plainly the bible reveals both the Father and Son to us, and shows us that indeed they come to us and make their abode in us.

If asked what (I) think of Jesus Christ, (my) reply is, (I) believe all that the Scriptures say of Him. If the testimony represents Him as being in glory with the Father before the world was (John 17:5), (I) believe it. If it is said that He was in the beginning with God, that He was God, that all things were made by Him and for Him, and that without Him was not anything made that was made (John 1:1-3), (I) believe it. If the Scriptures say He is the Son of God (John 20:31), (I) believe it. If it is declared that the Father sent His Son into the world (John 3:16), (I) believe He had a Son to send. If He is said to be the brightness of the Father’s glory, and the express image of His person (Hebrews 1:3), (I) believe it. If He is declared to be the only-begotten Son of God (John 1:14), then (I) believe that He was begotten.

If it is declared that He was brought forth before the creation of all worlds (Proverbs 8:22-30), (I) believe it is so. If He is said to have inherited a better name by virtue of His birth (Hebrews 1:4), (I) believe it to be true. If the testimony says JEHOVAH is the name of the Most High alone (Psalm 83:18), (I) believe it. If it is further declared that Jesus is the Son of that Most High (Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28), then (I) believe the Most High God is the Father. If it be said that the Father has placed His name in His Son (Exodus 23:21), (I) fully believe it. When Christ declares that He came in His Father’s name (John 5:43), (I) believe it. And when Jesus says, ‘I and my Father are one,’ (John 10:30) (I) believe it; and when He says, ‘My Father is greater than I,’ (John 14:28) (I) believe that too; it is the word of the Son of God, and besides this it is perfectly reasonable and patently obvious.
Dear Brother MANOU ,
I see the discussion of this forum on the Nature of Jesus and of His standing with the Father in Heaven ... His Role as our example ... to help us overcome by the same Spirit in which he overcame and actuated Him and fllled Him ... ( with the presence of the Godhead Bodily ) and yet fully Human ... as this plays a very important part in the savation of Mankind from sin ( "much more by His life are we saved") and I'm wondering why we need to keep going over these same texts to prove that the Spirit is the presence of Jesus and the Father with us.... except the Father and the son and the Holy Ghost...are all involved in your salvatoin and the strengtening of men for the overcoming of sin and the manifestatoin of the true Love of our Creator in us ... What else maters here ? What else is to be argued or instructed ? the statement above at the top of the page is clear enough right ? Look to Jesus and walk in His foot steps and we cannot go wrong ... as He is in us and we in Him ... He is the vine an we are the branches ,...we must be able to identify with Him in His sufferngs.... He certainly does in ours ....We must experience Him fully ... Pray for this !! that we may truley understand and love Him as He would have us .... God Bless ...TL

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