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My church Pastor today said the judgements in Exodus 21 to 24 were no longer binding for Adventists today?

In our Sabbath school class we spoke how we follow laws too strictly...that's true, some of us believe ye can't even dip in cool water on a hot Sabbath afternoon....does Scripture really make these laws?

Than there's the other extreme, that the laws are all gone, and we have freedom in Jesus to live as He wants us to live in love....love without rules of any kind...

Most of us, especially the youth are confused...

So what about  these judgements ? A judgement is a teaching based on the Ten commandments aren't they ? Isn't this what SOP said ?

Ex 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

Today governments see this rule as child maintenance....

Ex 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

How many homes would be kinder if children follow this rule....I am assuming your parents are worthy to be followed kindly....for they are supposed to be models of our heavenly parents.

Ex 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Doesn't Jesus renew this judgement rule differently in the NT ?

Mt 5:38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So clearly the judgement is renewed so the older one are not abolished , only given the correct meaning by Jesus ? This example tells me we are to look at the OT principles in NT settings and learn to adapt the principles under different times of love.

Ex 21:35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.

Could this rule apply in principle to tractors or cars in a renewed setting today?

Ex 22:6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

Compensation laws, these too are still binding as a principle today too aren't they ?

Ex 22:16 ¶ And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

Shameful marriages are binding too today aren't they ?Why is it the SDA dis-fellowships SDA virgins for having sex between themselves for the first time? Why don't we follow the torah judgement rules?

Ex 23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

We are terribly rude to strangers coming to our churches in rough clothes and manners?

The torah has other teachings too, compost toilet teachings, water hygiene teachings, building house teachings, agricultural teachings, clothing teachings, sowing seed teachings, slave teachings, feast teachings, sacrifice teachings, sin-offering teachings, worship teachings, food nutrition teachings, tithe teachings, Sabbath preparation day teachings, and so on....Are all these laws binding too ?Or do we just pick and choose the ones we like ?

Or maybe we are so sick of torah teachings we like to follow Jesus without any rules of any kind, and love Jesus in the world we live, which would be culturally where we live, a part of the world and the love of the world, that's what culture means, how communities of people do things....or are we supposed to be a different nation, spiritual Hebrews doing things as the OT and NT says, not like Jews, or Israel on old, but as Christian Hebrews for the promised Israel in heaven?

Or maybe we just drop the Hebrew culture altogether and live as best we do in our English or Spanish or German world following the culture of SDA Adventism given to us by SOP, which over time has become American in culture, after all the origin of Adventism is from the USA.

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interesting post Rob  n to answer these questions will take some time to further do the research  , It is true though that since Jesus died on the cross many of these old rules were done way with for the ywere to be for a time only. Their are many though that were not for  just a time either like letting the land rest every 7 years , Remember judgements used to fall from God when his commandments were ignored as well as judgements right? . WE did recently go over someof these in our bible class tha tsomethings had to have changed when Jesus died for us  or the same strict  punnishments for violating the Law would stil be in effect today

 for instance  in the new testament we have a recording of  How Annanias a nd his  wife  Saphria  Lied to God and withheld the money the ysaid the ywould give by selling a plot of land the ywere killed instantly  yes?  I not implying just because the Lord reserves judgements now till the very end  Lieing or any other sin  wether it be lust  stealing irreverence breaking Gods Sabbath by speaking our own woords on his Holy day is acceptable.. 

I will say if God dealt directly with us because of our sins today as He did in the past I myself would not be alive so I am thankful for  Grace n a chance to get  it right even though I be frail and sometinmes or  often fail Him hestill holds onto me and wont let me go . 

 Their are somethings we can  not fully understand either as to why it is today that ordinances are not adheared to like in the past .. Some as u say is in ignorance the ybeen told i no longer applies to us.  RECOMPENSING too is not the same as  before either except in part   weshould return tha twhich we gained illegially as far as we can  but today also many think Jesus blood covers all that.. I wonder in my mind how the y  would feel if someone were to take their belongings the yworked hard for   and u look for it and it gone  only a couple months or years find it at someones house ,,

It is then asked is that not mine  and they say oh  i took it before I was  saved so  i no longer have to return it i am under grace now. True  Love  and true faith  does not make mt excuses for  errors in judgement u make right what u can just as Zaccheuss offered to do,,. About sleeping wit h virgin and having to make her  your wife  would that  work in our society where this takes place on  large scale ? It no longer just  the male that  has sex with a young maiden it is wwomen young girls too that seduce or want their boyfriends to have sexwit them and if the ydo not it is the n labeled their something wrong with them, .  

IN Gods time and even in the new  Testament times  homosexuality was not allowed  period n yet today laws  are passed for to allow sexual  uniouns to whomever desires it and the next thing will either marry yourself  or maybe even ones favorite pet .... 

I am thinking Sodom  n Ghomorrah was not as vile  as  we are here  in this world  for their were no laws passed to say  everyone has to accept it by punnishment of the law /.  lets  sau uwere to rent a room i your home    u are not allowed by law to reject anyone  by race  religious belief or sexual preferences from renting  a room in your home or they can sue u , The laws of the land  are against Gods laws n yet     if u do not follow these  your fined and can be imprisoned .  ,,  ,,  A Pastor in many countries  even have to be careful what the y preach or it ca nbe considered a hate crime. 

Thanks Uncle for your reply, its not easy to understand why we don't follow torah teachings....we seem to pick and choose and yet if you read SOP she suggests all of them are still valid today, though some may not apply due to changes in how some cultures work these days, or Government laws over riding some teachings, or Jesus replacing some teachings with His true sin-offering for us...

Some might argue the torah teachings were only for Jews under Mt Sinai, but a vast majority of Egyptians also were saved under Passover and became the 13th tribe under Manasseh, so the Mt Sinai experience was for all the whole saved as a separate nation....and than supposed to reach out for others....

Even when you see Jesus coming on earth, he taught the Jews how to live under the torah teachings properly not according to the traditions of men, so this suggests the torah teachings still apply. Paul speaks of them as a tutor or teacher to train us to be like Jesus, so we grow up like babes at first into the mature trained believer so we are ready to walk in Jesus hand. After we are completely trained we no longer need the tutor to train us...

There might be some believers who think we come to Jesus fully in baptism and thus are mature already to have Jesus and thus not bother with training under the tutor who brings us in a sanctified life of torah teachings...

When a baby begins the hard love process is necessary for discipline has to have hard boundaries as well as soft boundaries. The judgements are hard boundaries of love, the ten commandments are written as hard boundaries of love too with more don'ts than do's. But as you are trained more by the tutor and Jesus, you move upward in grace and experience the spiritual attitudes of the love from the ten commandments, and the softer boundaries of love still guide you but with broader implications, so you feel more a chief of sinners.

You feel more and more sinful because an attitude has no boundaries and is not defined easily....how does one love thyself and thy neighbour?

This is where I would place the torah teachings and the ten commandments, with the beatitudes of grace, in some sort of array of love from soft boundaries to hard boundaries. The diagram preserves all torah teachings and we grow into them slowly...The Adventist culture also has torah teachings from SOP such as eating healthy foods and self control, and these too begin for many like hard boundaries of love....its not until years later we experience the freedom to be more alive in Jesus and thank Him for the tutor's training help.

God bless Uncle and thanks for your post

Shalom

Dear brother Rob,

 

I was asking you before but you didn't answer the post- how do you explain the Jerusalem counsel of Acts 15?  The New Testament is so clear through that and the discussion of circumcision, etc. that the laws of Moses are not binding.  I agree with you that there are so many things we can learn from the old testament laws, but if something still applies it is because it has a practical use or is based on scientifically sound principles- not because we believe all the laws of the Torah are still binding.

 

If they are still binding, we MUST stone to death anyone who breaks the Sabbath.  If they are still binding, every Christian man in the world must go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the Feasts, even though it's billions of people and there's not enough room for them to even fit there.  Do you see what I'm saying?  I feel that it's truly muddying the waters by saying that the old laws of Moses are still binding and that can't be in harmony with the New Testament or the Spirit of Prophecy.

 

You are such a nice person, Rob.  I'm sure the Lord is working in your life.  I pray that you will consider this matter prayerfully.

 

May the Lord bless you,

Vicki

Sister Vicki you have stopped me in my tracks so to speak...

What laws do you consider than still binding ? You mention the Laws of Moses, the Ten Commandments of the Father. Are there any others ? Does Jesus have any laws for us to keep?

You could include laws and ordinances in Genesis before the Laws of Moses, but aren't the laws and ordinances simply in Genesis the same repeated over in the Laws of Moses? And aren't the judgements simple God interpreting for us His ten Commandments in more detail? 

(I will consider how to apply these laws of olden times later...)

So what laws do you consider are still binding ...?

Shalom

Hello Rob,

 

Our reasoning on these things must be based on what the Bible says, not on what we assume, though.  It seems clear that several of the things you are saying require a jump in logic, that skips over biblical evidence.  For example, the following;

 

You said “yes I feel we should keep them (the ceremonial laws of Moses), but only as principles,... but many of the applications for keeping them would be in a renewed setting, as Jesus demonstrated by saying new wine must go in new wine skins.”

 

Do you see how the logic in this statement contradicts itself?.  Please notice here carefully- “New wine in new wineskins” is cannot be suggesting that we keep the old laws in a “renewed setting.”  If you say it’s the same old laws in a renewed setting you are putting old wine in new wineskins, just as Christ said we should not do.

 

I asked you how you explained the Jerusalem Counsel of Acts 15, and this is what you said...   “The early church also modified and reviewed torah teachings for Gentiles coming into the Jewish churches as Christians...”

 

So from that Biblical counsel which very clearly teaches us that we don’t have to keep the Laws of Moses, after they reviewed all the hundreds of laws and came up with only FOUR principles that people should follow, you say that what they are doing here is to “modify and review” and that rather than being an authoritative counsel, they were just doing that as an example for us – so that we can review and modify as much as we want- but even then we must still keep the Torah?

 

Do you see how confusing this argument is?  It is not objective reasoning, such as 1+1= 2.  Instead it is like saying 1+1 = 5, and sometimes 1+1 = 9, and sometimes 1+1 = (fill in the blank according to your wishes).

 

This was your statement about Jesus;

 

“He (Jesus) taught the Jews how to live under the torah teachings properly not according to the traditions of men, so this suggests the torah teachings still apply”

 

Jesus obeyed and kept the ceremonial laws of Moses at that time because they were not fulfilled by His death yet, but He spoke of them being done away with after they are fulfilled.   His death fulfilled the ceremonial laws because they pointed toward His coming as the Messiah.  I have read the conclusion of some who say that Jesus taught us to keep the whole Torah by his statement in Matthew 5:17-20- this is their conclusion;

 

“Anyone who breaks a single commandment of the Torah or teaches others to break the commandments will be called "least in the Kingdom of Heaven". Be careful if you tell someone that they don't have to obey a commandment.”

 

Therefore, with this reasoning they believe that we should keep ALL 613 LAWS of the Torah, and that if we don’t keep them all we are “least in the kingdom of God.”

 

So that is to say we must deny that Christ’s death fulfilled the system of types that pointed forward to Him, and deny the validity of the Jerusalem counsel of Acts 15 and say that all the New Testament discussion of Circumcision is invalid. We MUST literally stone to death all who break the Sabbath, all the males must go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for feasts, and sacrifices have not been done away with!

 

How do you reconcile this idea that you suggest “(Jesus) taught the Jews how to live under the torah teachings properly... so this suggests the torah teachings still apply,” with this statement “Yes I feel we should keep them (the ceremonial laws of Moses), but only as principles,...” ?  If you are taking Jesus statement in Matthew 5:17-20 to mean that all the Ceremonial Laws of Moses are still binding, then you cannot say we can keep them “only in principle,”  because then you are breaking some of the commandments from the Torah and teaching others to break them and will be called “least in the Kingdom of Heaven.”

 

There is no scripture to back up the idea that you can pick and choose which of the Laws of Moses to follow- that you don’t have to do sacrifices but do the other parts which the New Testament teaches we don’t have to keep. 

 

You said that the heavenly Sanctuary is now in Heaven- that’s correct according to the book of Hebrews, but why do you choose to believe that part of the New Testament and reject the New Testament teaching in Acts 15 that only FOUR principles of the Laws of Moses should still be encouraged, and the repeated teaching that circumcision is not binding, as symbolic that the laws not needing to be kept?  Is the New Testament an authority or not?  If it is we must accept it wholly and not pick and choose which parts of it we will accept.

 

You said;  “For example, Ellen White spends over 20 pages talking about an ordinance where one leaves a field edge of harvest for the poor, and changes this for us to not take all the food from our cupboards but to give a portion to the poor. These kind of examples show us how the torah letter could be changed to other situations, thus the principles of them tell us newer applications of love.

 

Again, this requires a leap of logic- instead of having Bible verses that say we can change the ceremonial laws of Moses to apply it in a different way, you say that because Ellen White draws some spiritual lessons out of the Laws of Moses this suggests that the laws are still binding but can be applied in different ways.

 

That does not stand if you believe that they are still binding, because right within the instructions it also says  “See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.” Deuteronomy 12:32

 

If the laws from the Torah are still binding, then according to Deut.12:32 we must keep them as they are written! We cannot keep them only as principles and apply them to different situations in different ways.  

 

Either they are binding or they are not binding.  And the New Testament teaches clearly that they are not binding.

 

That does not mean that we can’t learn lessons from them or that we don’t keep some similar principles, because God as our creator instituted scientifically sound sanitation principles, etc. through them.  But we keep scientifically sound principles and also have much blessing of heavenly light for instruction in health principles from Sister White’s prophetically inspired writings, (which have also been proven scientifically).  We don’t do it because we believe that all the laws of Moses are binding.

 

You asked me “So what laws do you consider are still binding ...?”

 

The New Testament makes it clear that it is the ceremonial laws of Moses which ended. The 10 commandments are referred to repeatedly and reiterated almost word for word.  They were written in stone by the finger of God and placed inside the ark.  I explained in another post how Colossians 2 clearly points to the ceremonial law as being done away with at the Cross by speaking of the handwriting which was against us. This is the very language that was used to describe the ceremonial law when it was instated, saying it was written by the hand of Moses and put BESIDE the Ark of the Covenant as a witness against the people.

 

As an Adventist, do you spend much time reading the Spirit of Prophecy?  It is made so clear over and over that it is the Decalogue which is enduring.

 

When the New Testament clearly tells us that the Ceremonial Laws of Moses were done away with and you teach that they are binding- you are in disobedience of scripture. 

 

In order to come to these conclusions that you have written you have to use extra-biblical reasoning- in other words “I feel that it is this way,” rather than “the Bible says...”

 

What it means when people argue in a way that is not logical or rational is that they are trying to make the Bible fit a theory the personally hold, instead of letting the Bible explain itself and allowing Scripture to be the authority in our lives.

 

I truly pray that you will consider this matter prayerfully and look at it objectively with logical principles that are consistently applied to all verses- not choosing which verses we will accept and which we will not.

 

I have spoken in a very straight forward way.  I do not mean to be unkind or intimidating, but just to indicate the things which I see must be made clear.

 

May the Lord bless you, Rob.

Hello Rob,

Regarding the idea of the New Testament being originally written in Hebrew, what is your resource for this?

If that is truly the case, why would it be that God didn’t preserve any Hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament?

Greek was the most prevalent language at the time the New Testament was written, and it was written for the purpose of reaching out to the Gentiles. 

From what I’ve read of this, certain scholars believe that the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew based on things they assume were evidence, but they have no Hebrew manuscripts to prove it. 

One of the most notable things throughout history is God’s miraculous preservation of the Holy scriptures.  So if it really had been originally written in Hebrew and that was important to God He would have certainly preserved the manuscripts.

Ideas must be based on facts not feelings or groundless ideas.  We can’t believe just anything that we read on the internet.

This link shows a huge amount of evidence for why the New Testament was written in Greek, including stories of Christ’s interactions with certain people and groups of people who almost certainly would have been in Greek;

http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm

...Here Zwingli received his early education; here Erasmus published the New Testament which he had translated from the original Greek into Latin;...  .”{RH October 13, 1885, par. 3

Being the seat of a university, Basle was the favorite resort of scholars. It also had many printing-offices. Here Zwingle received his early education; here Erasmus published the New Testament which he had translated from the original Greek into Latin {HS 171.1}

Mrs. White seems to support the idea that the New Testament was originally written in Greek.

"Erasmus [in the early 1500's] published the New Testament which he had translated from the original Greek into Latin..." (Historical Sketches p.171)

Thank you all for an interest in the fact the Bible both OT and NT was originally written in Hebrew...we used to doubt the OT was written in Hebrew once, remember? Not until the dead sea scrolls showed up would anyone believe it....the oldest Bible than was a Greek copy.

@Stewart, yes I read that passage once before, it seems Erasmus translated from original Greek into Latin does not imply that Greek was the originally the first language of the NT does it ?

If some of you are interested in the most scholarly reasons why the New Testament was not originally written in Greek, please do a google search and type "Was the New Testament really written in Greek?" than click ENTER, than you will see a pdf document and begins downloading immediately (4MB or so) and you will have a free copy of the most comprehensive study on the NT. I can't share the link because the link is long and the website hosting the link has it fully downloading.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&s...

Not sure if the above link will do it for you...

Any of course if you want to believe Jesus even spoke Greek, there are authorities source claiming that here, http://www.ntgreek.org/SeminaryPapers/Evidence%20from%20History%20a...

Jeff Benner, who I trust an a modern archaeology source hosts evidence for this for those wanting a general not too difficult study into the topic. See below

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_home.html

There are over a dozen links and UTube evidence he lists

Enjoy the links especially Jeff Benner's research

Shalom

Are you placing these scholarly reasons, articles, and documents above Ellen White's writings? 

Hello Rob,

 

Consider also, though, that many people have all kinds of ideas and theories about extra books or manuscripts that somehow didn't make it into the Bible though they are sure they should have been. 

 

That's how they come up with things like the Apocrypha and book of Enoch, etc. which lead to false doctrines.  This mystical idea about an original Hebrew text is of the same nature.  If God didn't preserve Hebrew in the original text, He didn't mean for it to be part of the Bible- that's a safeguard against false doctrine.

 

Satan always has a very carefully thought out plan in leading to false doctrine.  It is never harmless to accept things that are not consistently in harmony with the straight testimony of Scripture.  

 

I fear you may not see where your steps are leading with accepting this kind of doctrine.  It is possible to reason ourselves out of the truth through study that goes astray. 

 

As someone else pointed out, many of the links you posted are from sites that believe Israel to be the central focus of end-time prophecy, etc.  You have reasoned differently in some ways than many people who promote the idea that all the laws of the Torah are still binding, but you are promoting the same basic concepts.  Besides that, though you try to soften it from what others do by saying sacrifices are not required, Israel should not be the central focus of prophecy, and that we can apply the laws in different ways- these concepts are not consistent with the scriptures which people use to say all of Moses' laws are still binding. 

 

So, even though you say you are not promoting ideas such as sacrifices and Israel focus, to teach that the whole Torah is still in effect inherently promotes those other errors too- because any logical, reasoning person would understand that in order to keep all the laws of the Torah as written they must focus on Israel and sacrifices.

 

The ultimate effect of this is that it leads to a denial of Christ as the Messiah. It denies the fact that His life and death accomplished anything for us- because if the types and shadows of the law remain, then the antitype must not have come yet.

 

That is exactly what Satan wants- because he is planning to come as the antichrist to fulfill everyone's long-held expectations of the Messiah.

 

What do you think about this, Rob - instead of saying that all of the Torah laws are still binding, just study it for the spiritual and practical lessons of life?  In that way then what you say about the PRINCIPLES still being valuable would be perfectly logical as well as consistent with the New Testament.  

For example, I liked one of your comments about the gardening, about how you suggested to people some better farming lessons based on principles from the Torah laws.  That makes sense- certainly there are plenty of practical things we can learn from them about farming, sanitation, etc.  But some of them definitely were for that specific time and culture as well as pointing forward to the death of Christ, and the New Testament makes it clear that we are not to teach that they are still binding.

 

I don't have any problem if you were to say it like that- that you love studying it and finding practial lessons that are still useful to us today (this is just what Sister White often did in her writings, as you pointed out).  The thing I have a problem with is if you say all the laws of Moses are still binding- then that is when you are saying something that grossly contradicts the message of the New Testament.

Take care and may the Lord bless you,

 

Vicki

@ Vicki "QUOTE What do you think about this, Rob - instead of saying that all of the Torah laws are still binding, just study it for the spiritual and practical lessons of life?  In that way then what you say about the PRINCIPLES still being valuable would be perfectly logical as well as consistent with the New Testament.

Correct, my fault in choosing the wrong words...the principles of torah teachings are still invaluable for us today, wherever we can find them applicable as a practical application in our daily life with Jesus. How's that ?

Regarding Hebrew, I suggest you wander through my website and study the matter for yourself and tell me if I am really on a strange path....The ancient Hebrew pictograph is actually preserved inside the modern Hebrew script, so God did take pains to preserve the original meanings of His words, I say this to a large extent....remember ancient Hebrew is a dead language, no Jew understands the language better than anybody else. I use the pictograph script only as a tool for learning....try the link and read the simple presentations on each webpage, than suggest a specific comment about the theory of faith.... http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-364.htm

@Jason, if you care to read some links here and show me, where my work s above Ellen White, or wandering off the path Jesus has for us....

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-756.htm what is a theory of faith (EGW term)

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-757.htm How I study my bible

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-776.htm The greatest gift GW gave us, the Bible steps for ongoing salvation....I placed this on AO, only 4 people wanted to know, perhaps you might want to see how EGW Steps to Jesus does fit in Scripture in the same chronological order as She lists each step?

If we are supposed to read Jesus words daily, than the promises of Scripture will make us receive things from Him, and an increase in knowledge of His love will be one of those gifts...

Shalom

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