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Well, fellow Members, this has certainly been an interesting week. Here's another article I received, just today, regarding a VERY significant change in viewpoint.  I think it is remarkable that we just read about how we're going around ripping signs down and dragging people into court on the one hand, but on the other hand we're making nice, lifting up, and even promoting others.  It's like we're cannibalizing ourselves, self-destructing, it seems.  I'm so thankful to God that He's not saving us in groups.  He is saving us INDIVIDUALLY.  You can trust that you will NOT get into Heaven based on the particular church roll your name is on. You will only get there based on the character you've developed, who rules your heart, and whether or not your name is listed in the Lamb's book of Life. PERIOD.  I am so thankful that I've never been one to follow the crowd.  I was always taught to know the Lord and His Word for myself.  So everyone is welcome to believe however they choose.  There is FREEDOM in serving the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:17).  As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord according to His Word, regardless of what man has to say about it.

"Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. The Lord does not propose to save us in companies. Individually we are to make our choice (Faith I Live By 154.7). 

God's people (individuals) can and will be found all over the world, regardless of group.  So while the different groups are waffling back and forth and running along after whatever the particular wind of doctrine of the day is, God's people will be making their calling and election sure.  They will one day be part of the TRUE FOLD.  Just so we're clear.  What we're witnessing is the Church Militant.  May we ALL strive to be members of the Church Triumphant!

"I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:15-16 Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.  {Signs of the Times, January 22, 1894}
Remember, the "old" view that is being spoken against in the article below was based STRICTLY off of the Bible and the Bible alone.  So when we throw that "old" view out, what are really saying?  What do we do with Bible Prophecy?  And if the Bible is wrong, then what do we do about the rest of what we believe?

Martin Luther (who's motto was also Sola Scriptura) identified the Antichrist over 500 years ago! (along with many others):

The quote copied below is from one of Martin Luther's last books. It was titled: "A Prelude by Martin Luther on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church," Page 536, chapter 3.

"Nevertheless, since few know this glory of baptism and the blessedness of Christian liberty, and cannot know them because of the tyranny of the pope, I for one will walk away from it all and redeem my conscience by bringing this charge against the pope and all his papists: Unless they will abolish their laws and traditions, and restore to Christ's churches their liberty and have it taught among them, they are guilty of all the souls that perish under this miserable captivity, and the papacy is truly the kingdom of Babylon, yes, the kingdom of the real Antichrist! For who is " the man of sin" and "the son of perdition" but he that with his doctrines and his laws increases sins and the perdition of souls in the Church, while he sits in the Church as if he were God? All this the papal tyranny has fulfilled, and more than fulfilled, these many centuries. It has extinguished faith, obscured the sacraments and oppressed the Gospel."

Keep in mind that it was NEVER the Roman Catholics who were on the "Hook" in the first place.  It was the Roman Catholic System.  God has precious souls in the Roman Catholic Church and in other denominations all over the world.  So even the topic of the article below is deceptive.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.  Read it and weep 

 Adventist Today Magazine January 04, 2010

Letting Roman Catholics Off the Hook

Posted January 4th, 2010 by Loren Seibold

Editor's Note: This is a preview article that appears on page 22 of our brand-new winter 2010 print issue being delivered to our subscribers this month.

By Loren Seibold

For over a century, even before the publication of The Great Controversy, we Adventists have regarded the Roman Catholic Church leadership, typified in the first beast of Revelation 13, as our arch-nemesis, our bête noire, the enemy that takes the evil part in the apocalyptic scenario against God's remnant.

Here are seven reasons why it may be time to question them in that role.

1.   More than a hundred years have passed since our prophet approved these prophetic applications. Ellen White expected Jesus to return long before this.1We're not sure why that hasn't happened. But isn't it possible that some details of the apocalyptic scenario set out in the 1890s may have changed by the 2010s? It happened to Israel. Not all of the original Old Testament prophecies about them and their role came to pass. We call it "conditional prophecy."

2.   Principles might be more diagnostic than players. That we oppose those who would legislate matters that should be left to an individual's conscience is a principle I value, and I'm proud of Seventh-day Adventist efforts to protect religious liberty. But if it should happen that someone other than the Roman Catholic Church begins to act like the beast of Revelation 13, we will be more ready to respond if we are watching for a violation of the principle than if waiting for one specific group to offend.

3.   Ellen White fingered Catholicism in a very different world. Historians have shown that 19th-century American anti-Catholicism grew out of a general anti-immigrant nativism.2 In an era when we have had and could again have a liberty-loving Roman Catholic president, when Catholic immigrants have become our young work force, why can't we preach the gospel without identifying Roman Catholicism as Satan's exclusive tool?

4.   The Roman Catholic Church of today is a much different institution than it was during Ellen White's time.The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican (1962-1965) radically altered that denomination's theology and practices. Vatican II declared the gospel central to church theology, made worship accessible, denied that Roman Catholics only can be saved, encouraged lay Bible study, and affirmed religious liberty. While not quite a Protestant Reformation, today's Catholic Church is not the same Catholic Church referenced in our 19th-century eschatological studies. Among other things, the Second Ecumenical Council weakened Vatican authority over world Catholics-as evidenced by the 78 percent of American Catholics who oppose their church's ban on contraception.3

5.   By focusing on Roman Catholicism, we may miss more dangerous anti-Christian opponents. Far more Christians have been killed, persecuted, or denied their religious liberty by Communism, military Fascism, and Islamist extremism in the past century than by Roman Catholics; we've let these pass with minimal comment (in the case of Naziism, even offering some pusillanimous cooperation) as we continued to warn against the pope. Today religious liberty still has more dangerous enemies than Catholicism–in the United States, perhaps even some of our fellow conservative Protestants.

6.   God has given us time to become a world church, and that changes the cast of characters in our eschatology. The "antichrists"-opposers of Christ–to many of today's world Christians are radical imams or cruel dictators. One site of Christian persecution right now is northern Nigeria, where Muslims burn churches and killChristians.4 An eschatology that expects only Roman Catholics to initiate religious oppression, only in the United States, and only around the Sabbath question, may fail to speak prophetically should apocalyptic markers appear elsewhere.

7.   Religious liberty has arguably improved in countries where Catholicism has influence. During my lifetime, the papacy has frequently been a force for peace and freedom. Pope John Paul II opened the first breach in the Iron Curtain, and Catholics have been more forthright in speaking against violence and oppression than many of our fellow conservative Protestants. Consider the irony that our evangelists are employing anti-Catholic teachings for soul winning in countries where the papacy helped win them that freedom! (And the even greater irony that some of us still think that calling the Pope the Antichrist is necessary to win souls to Christ.)

Of course, we don't give the Roman Catholic church a free pass; we subject it to the same Biblical scrutiny we would any other influential world power. (And while we're at it, we'd do well always to scrutinize ourselves by the same metrics we use on others–which is Jesus' advice, not mine.5)

But perhaps we needn't single out Roman Catholicism any longer. Ellen White, who was often more flexible than her followers, wrote: "God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things."6

Roman Catholicism has served us well as an enemy: provocative enough to keep us energized, yet doing minimal actual damage to us. Such an important enemy made us feel significant, "in the know," and in control, while not really disturbing our lives.

Opposing current enemies might thrust us into prophetic roles that take more commitment and action. My friend Bert B. Beach, speaking of Adventist eschatology, once said to me: "I'm suspicious when people are constantly focused on what's going to happen in the future. I think they're trying to avoid dealing with what's going on right now."

I think Bert is on to something. Could we become as enthusiastic in taking on the religious persecution that's happening to Christians right now, in places like Nigeria, as we've been in accusing Roman Catholicism of planning to someday persecute us here? -Adventist today magazine Jan. 04, 2010

1 She wasn't alone; the apostles expected Jesus in their lifetimes, too (see Matt. 24:34, Heb. 1:1-2, 2 Thess. 1:6-10).

2 See Ernest Tuveson's Redeemer Nation and John Higham's Strangers in the Land: Patterns of American Nativism, 1860-1925.


4 And sometimes, sadly, vice versa.

5 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:2, NIV).

6 Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 217.  


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Dear Brother John, I hope you don't think that I am supporting this article. I am NOT. I posted it to show that this is 1) THIS IS A SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST PUBLICATION, put out by OUR Church and 2) We are throwing away a century's old belief that we and most Protestant Churches have believed from the beginning of the Reformation and 3) The article's title makes it seem like the Seventh-day Adventist Church has been against Roman Catholic people and we never have. It's always been about the Roman Catholic system. I thought that I made that clear in my previous comments.

People need to be aware of what is happening around them and need to begin to think clearly and make decisions about their faith and the soul salvation of others based on a firm thus saith the Lord. There are far too many winds of doctrine blowing all around and now even our very own belief system in the Bible is being called into question by our own people.

Of Course the Sabbath is at the very root of not just this article but the entire Great Controversy. It all boils down to who we are going to worship and pledge our allegiance too. Catholicism DOES fit into Bible Prophecy JUST as Daniel and Revelation teaches that they do and I would NEVER present the LIE that it teaches otherwise. However, this is what this article is trying to do.
It was my pleasure.
I Stand Corrected... (Thankfully, I might add, though it does not change the fact that the article is DEAD WRONG). Adventist Today is a publication apparently run (I guess) by Seventh-day Adventists, but not directly put out or published by OUR Church. "Adventist Today is an independent voice not beholden to any ecclesiastical, corporate or institutional sponsor." The Adventist Today administrative and editorial team's intention is NOT to uphold the pillars and belief of the Seventh-day Adventist faith or beliefs in Sola Scriptura, but "to publish or post only that which represents our efforts to reach the highest standards of journalistic excellence and integrity." So, we get whatever we get. Reader Beware. I do wonder, however, if OUR church will have as much to say about articles like this as they have of other things that have been viewed as wrongly representing the Bible and what we stand for and believe in.

Here is Adventist Today's Guiding Principles from their website:

The Adventist Today administrative and editorial team has felt it is important to restate what our veteran readers have long known and what we would like our new readers to know about Adventist Today (AT). Some of our readers may at times be uncomfortable with things they see in AT or posted on the AT website. Some might even question the orthodoxy of Adventist Today. It may be helpful, therefore, to restate Adventist Today's four Guiding Principles.

First, because its focus is on a particular community of Christian faith—the Seventh-day Adventist faith tradition—Adventist Today seeks always to build the Kingdom of God and to feature the best elements of Adventist Christianity. It also will raise questions when elements of Adventist Christianity arise that detract from, or distract its members from the Kingdom of God. We believe that it is important to note, however, that honorable and sincere Adventist Christians may not always completely agree as to what defines those best or distracting elements.

Second, Adventist Today is not a “house organ” which is what some readers call publications such as those published by the denomination. Adventist Today is not required to advance any particular theological point of view or endorse any specific organizational policy in the magazine, in the weekly ATUpdate, or on our web site. Adventist Today is an independent voice not beholden to any ecclesiastical, corporate or institutional sponsor.

Third, what is published in Adventist Today or posted or emailed on behalf of Adventist Today may or may not reflect the personal views of those responsible for the various functions that make Adventist Today possible. The views expressed by Adventist Today personnel represent a wide spectrum of convictions related to both theological and church administrative issues. All members of the Adventist Today family of editors and administrative personnel respect the freedom of colleagues to share their diverse opinions and are pleased that Adventist Today is understood to be a place where ideas can be safely shared.

Fourth, the Adventist Today administrative and editorial team affirms that its intention is to publish or post only that which represents our efforts to reach the highest standards of journalistic excellence and integrity.

In the spirit of the preamble to the official statement of the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Adventist Today will always seek better ways of expressing our understanding of these Guiding Principles.
I don't think Adventist Today is an official publication of the Adventist Church...
What facts? I'm just saying that it doesn't represent the official views of the Adventist church...
Thank you for pointing that out Travis. I dug a little deeper and apparently you are right. Thank God.
Wow this is indeed troubling to say the least.

I am almost 50 years and since birth I have always been an Adventist and dedicated to the Adventist church and its 3 Angel message. I have no issue with the Catholic church and I view Catholics as Christians and fellow followers of Jesus. Catholics in my opinion are people who love Jesus and are dedicated to His mission here on earth.

Now if that makes me a hipocrate or whatever then so be it.

Both my wife and I are Hispanic and my parents left the Catholic church.  We watch with a sad heart as relitives light candles to little statues with hope as a large church ignores their true needs.  Do the these people need the light we have?   All this can be summed up in Ephesians 6:12.  It is so easy to separate the individual from the institution I do not understand the consternation. 

Well we all God's children and we should all help each other grow.

I have serious problems with the Catholic system, but not Catholics.  One of the people I respect the most, and is a good friend of mine is Catholic.  We help each other out.  When we want to have a private conversation we have it in Spanish.  I consider him to be a very good friend.  He is dedicated to what he knows, and his honest about it.  The system is that of the Anti-Christ there is no doubt.  But, him as an individual, I obviously have no problems with,

Yes, Amen one of my best friends is Catholic.  We work together everyday and share an interest in RC aircraft. Because the death of a son he is very hard to reach I have been praying for an opening to witness to him. 


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