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Well, fellow Members, this has certainly been an interesting week. Here's another article I received, just today, regarding a VERY significant change in viewpoint.  I think it is remarkable that we just read about how we're going around ripping signs down and dragging people into court on the one hand, but on the other hand we're making nice, lifting up, and even promoting others.  It's like we're cannibalizing ourselves, self-destructing, it seems.  I'm so thankful to God that He's not saving us in groups.  He is saving us INDIVIDUALLY.  You can trust that you will NOT get into Heaven based on the particular church roll your name is on. You will only get there based on the character you've developed, who rules your heart, and whether or not your name is listed in the Lamb's book of Life. PERIOD.  I am so thankful that I've never been one to follow the crowd.  I was always taught to know the Lord and His Word for myself.  So everyone is welcome to believe however they choose.  There is FREEDOM in serving the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:17).  As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord according to His Word, regardless of what man has to say about it.

"Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians. The Lord does not propose to save us in companies. Individually we are to make our choice (Faith I Live By 154.7). 

God's people (individuals) can and will be found all over the world, regardless of group.  So while the different groups are waffling back and forth and running along after whatever the particular wind of doctrine of the day is, God's people will be making their calling and election sure.  They will one day be part of the TRUE FOLD.  Just so we're clear.  What we're witnessing is the Church Militant.  May we ALL strive to be members of the Church Triumphant!

"I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:15-16 Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.  {Signs of the Times, January 22, 1894}
   
Remember, the "old" view that is being spoken against in the article below was based STRICTLY off of the Bible and the Bible alone.  So when we throw that "old" view out, what are really saying?  What do we do with Bible Prophecy?  And if the Bible is wrong, then what do we do about the rest of what we believe?

Martin Luther (who's motto was also Sola Scriptura) identified the Antichrist over 500 years ago! (along with many others):

The quote copied below is from one of Martin Luther's last books. It was titled: "A Prelude by Martin Luther on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church," Page 536, chapter 3.

"Nevertheless, since few know this glory of baptism and the blessedness of Christian liberty, and cannot know them because of the tyranny of the pope, I for one will walk away from it all and redeem my conscience by bringing this charge against the pope and all his papists: Unless they will abolish their laws and traditions, and restore to Christ's churches their liberty and have it taught among them, they are guilty of all the souls that perish under this miserable captivity, and the papacy is truly the kingdom of Babylon, yes, the kingdom of the real Antichrist! For who is " the man of sin" and "the son of perdition" but he that with his doctrines and his laws increases sins and the perdition of souls in the Church, while he sits in the Church as if he were God? All this the papal tyranny has fulfilled, and more than fulfilled, these many centuries. It has extinguished faith, obscured the sacraments and oppressed the Gospel."

Keep in mind that it was NEVER the Roman Catholics who were on the "Hook" in the first place.  It was the Roman Catholic System.  God has precious souls in the Roman Catholic Church and in other denominations all over the world.  So even the topic of the article below is deceptive.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.  Read it and weep 


 Adventist Today Magazine January 04, 2010

Letting Roman Catholics Off the Hook

Posted January 4th, 2010 by Loren Seibold

Editor's Note: This is a preview article that appears on page 22 of our brand-new winter 2010 print issue being delivered to our subscribers this month.


By Loren Seibold

For over a century, even before the publication of The Great Controversy, we Adventists have regarded the Roman Catholic Church leadership, typified in the first beast of Revelation 13, as our arch-nemesis, our bête noire, the enemy that takes the evil part in the apocalyptic scenario against God's remnant.

Here are seven reasons why it may be time to question them in that role.

1.   More than a hundred years have passed since our prophet approved these prophetic applications. Ellen White expected Jesus to return long before this.1We're not sure why that hasn't happened. But isn't it possible that some details of the apocalyptic scenario set out in the 1890s may have changed by the 2010s? It happened to Israel. Not all of the original Old Testament prophecies about them and their role came to pass. We call it "conditional prophecy."

2.   Principles might be more diagnostic than players. That we oppose those who would legislate matters that should be left to an individual's conscience is a principle I value, and I'm proud of Seventh-day Adventist efforts to protect religious liberty. But if it should happen that someone other than the Roman Catholic Church begins to act like the beast of Revelation 13, we will be more ready to respond if we are watching for a violation of the principle than if waiting for one specific group to offend.

3.   Ellen White fingered Catholicism in a very different world. Historians have shown that 19th-century American anti-Catholicism grew out of a general anti-immigrant nativism.2 In an era when we have had and could again have a liberty-loving Roman Catholic president, when Catholic immigrants have become our young work force, why can't we preach the gospel without identifying Roman Catholicism as Satan's exclusive tool?

4.   The Roman Catholic Church of today is a much different institution than it was during Ellen White's time.The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican (1962-1965) radically altered that denomination's theology and practices. Vatican II declared the gospel central to church theology, made worship accessible, denied that Roman Catholics only can be saved, encouraged lay Bible study, and affirmed religious liberty. While not quite a Protestant Reformation, today's Catholic Church is not the same Catholic Church referenced in our 19th-century eschatological studies. Among other things, the Second Ecumenical Council weakened Vatican authority over world Catholics-as evidenced by the 78 percent of American Catholics who oppose their church's ban on contraception.3

5.   By focusing on Roman Catholicism, we may miss more dangerous anti-Christian opponents. Far more Christians have been killed, persecuted, or denied their religious liberty by Communism, military Fascism, and Islamist extremism in the past century than by Roman Catholics; we've let these pass with minimal comment (in the case of Naziism, even offering some pusillanimous cooperation) as we continued to warn against the pope. Today religious liberty still has more dangerous enemies than Catholicism–in the United States, perhaps even some of our fellow conservative Protestants.

6.   God has given us time to become a world church, and that changes the cast of characters in our eschatology. The "antichrists"-opposers of Christ–to many of today's world Christians are radical imams or cruel dictators. One site of Christian persecution right now is northern Nigeria, where Muslims burn churches and killChristians.4 An eschatology that expects only Roman Catholics to initiate religious oppression, only in the United States, and only around the Sabbath question, may fail to speak prophetically should apocalyptic markers appear elsewhere.

7.   Religious liberty has arguably improved in countries where Catholicism has influence. During my lifetime, the papacy has frequently been a force for peace and freedom. Pope John Paul II opened the first breach in the Iron Curtain, and Catholics have been more forthright in speaking against violence and oppression than many of our fellow conservative Protestants. Consider the irony that our evangelists are employing anti-Catholic teachings for soul winning in countries where the papacy helped win them that freedom! (And the even greater irony that some of us still think that calling the Pope the Antichrist is necessary to win souls to Christ.)

Of course, we don't give the Roman Catholic church a free pass; we subject it to the same Biblical scrutiny we would any other influential world power. (And while we're at it, we'd do well always to scrutinize ourselves by the same metrics we use on others–which is Jesus' advice, not mine.5)

But perhaps we needn't single out Roman Catholicism any longer. Ellen White, who was often more flexible than her followers, wrote: "God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things."6

Roman Catholicism has served us well as an enemy: provocative enough to keep us energized, yet doing minimal actual damage to us. Such an important enemy made us feel significant, "in the know," and in control, while not really disturbing our lives.

Opposing current enemies might thrust us into prophetic roles that take more commitment and action. My friend Bert B. Beach, speaking of Adventist eschatology, once said to me: "I'm suspicious when people are constantly focused on what's going to happen in the future. I think they're trying to avoid dealing with what's going on right now."

I think Bert is on to something. Could we become as enthusiastic in taking on the religious persecution that's happening to Christians right now, in places like Nigeria, as we've been in accusing Roman Catholicism of planning to someday persecute us here? -Adventist today magazine Jan. 04, 2010


1 She wasn't alone; the apostles expected Jesus in their lifetimes, too (see Matt. 24:34, Heb. 1:1-2, 2 Thess. 1:6-10).

2 See Ernest Tuveson's Redeemer Nation and John Higham's Strangers in the Land: Patterns of American Nativism, 1860-1925.

3 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050418/18american.htm

4 And sometimes, sadly, vice versa.

5 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:2, NIV).

6 Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 217.  


Source:  http://www.atoday.com/letting-roman-catholics-hook

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Replies to This Discussion

True, it is like disarming a volatile bomb when you have a situation like that.  You want to share, but not alienate or drive a wedge.  My friend is deep in.  He is a Knight of Columbus, and even took his mother to visit the Vatican.  I don't want to offend him, but I do want to share with him.  It is a Catch-22.  I did give him a Steps to Christ in honor of Easter one year.  He took it, and politely.

There are many erroneous assertions in the article. I'll just point out two of the most obvious. Time-based prophecies relating to the sequence of worldly kingdoms shown to Daniel and John the revelator are not conditional. For example, Babylon followed by Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome and papal Rome (Little Horn power removing three horns and coming up amidst the ten toes of divided Rome) are not conditional like the blessings and curses in Deut 28. The obedience of God's people or lack thereof does not change the prophesied sequence and character of the kingldoms spoken about. Hence it is erroneous to use EGW's comment on circumstnces and conditionsto let RC off the hook.

Secondly, the RC 'church' has not changed in its core. Its opposition to God's word, His law and His people in the time of reformation is still the same today despite the cosmetic changes done for public relations purposes. Indeed, most of its spiritually obnoxious practices and traditions have been reemphasized in our time contrary to claims that it has changed.

It matters not if the curses were conditional. The fact is they broke the covenant, therefore the curse was pour upon them as the Lord said through all His servants the prophets.(see 2Kgs. 17; Nehemiah 9 and Daniel 9)

Regardless of what man or the Septuagint said.
The curse of Moses was inflicted for a duration of time called "long continuance".(see Deut.28:58,59).

Which covenant are you referring to? The New Covenant is in effect since the Day of Pentecost as detailed by the Apostle Paul by his communicating the sacred secrets (musterion) hidden in God since the foundations of the world. One can not make assumptions as many Catholics are born again of God's spirit even if they believe and practice false doctrines ignorantly as they were taught.

There are many leaders including Popes who were totally wicked, but God judges on a case by case basis, not by association. Many Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ despite everything.

I certainly do not like much of what the Catholic church does but that is the system. For a long time they were the only so called church in the world. God was not totally out of business, as he worked with people were they were at, some followed God's spirit to some extent. The monks preserved a lot of history and science and what scriptures they had, art etc. That is good, we can't know where we are going unless we know where we came from.

James you have it wrong again and no surprises here because you get most things wrong. You will find that the New Covenant is older than the Old Covenant. Because Abraham was walking with God in faith and Obedience (for the most part). Sara is the mother of the spiritual Israel who like Abraham walks in Faith and obedience to His Commandments. 

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

7 reasons! Are you joking.

We have 50 to 100 million reasons why we will not let this anti christian system of the hook.
Would please tell this man to read Revelation 18:4-8 and 24.
Brethren earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

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