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Male Adventist Pastors Forgo Ordination Credentials in Solidarity with Unordained Women


I am honored to say that my pastor was one of those who turned in his Ordination credentials for Commissioned...In addition two Unions have suspended ordination altogether.


http://www.religionnews.com/2015/10/15/male-adventist-pastors-forgo...

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Peace


JohnB: "Let us also not forget one of the other red herrings of this topic: that women have to be ordained to do any form of ministerial or pastoral work. That has never, ever, been the case in the SDA Church. The Gospel work has always been open to all - male or female. "




Brother JohnB, ok we agree women can do ministerial and pastoral work. Can I ask you, is it OK for the church to lay Hands on them , pray for them and acknowledge what the Holy Spirit, GOD has called them to do in HIS Church?




JohnB: "As far as I can see, ordination is God's will for organisation in His church but the difference is that we are now attempting to tell God how His church is to be organised - and we are doing it according to the "political correctness" of our times. We change two thousand years of experience on the basis of recent 20th-Century feminism."




No way, I'm telling GOD how to organize HIS Church, I'm thinking ordination as shown in the early Church has been taken to a level not intended in the SDA Church. I believe there are mans traditions blended. I understand after the fall a "wife" was subjected to her "husband", before they were equal, but just like pastor T said, this relationship is somehow connected to working in GOD'S Church.
So I ask you, is there something more specific in the Bible that says a woman can't be a leader of a flock within GOD'S Church?
Of course if she is married she is still subjected to her husband, but maybe GOD didn't choose her husband to be a pastor/ leader like she is, who knows, his calling might be in the music ministry, but he is always leader as her husband.




JohnB:"I find it really strange that the "feminist", pro-WO section of the Church claim that women cannot work without ordination (a claim that has never been made in regard to men) and then apply a second-class form of "ordination" essentially to women only. So far the pro-WO movement has a lot to account for on both those points yet now it goes further to demand that no-one is ordained. Have we reached the omega of apostasy yet or is there more to come"



Right, that's me, because I believe ordination how we have today in the church has been perverted. Is that hard to believe JohnB? There are many examples of GOD'S people doing this in the past. Now, I could be wrong, but I have been exploring this as a possibility. So discussing this with you is a blessing, thank you my brother!


Blessings!

You said:  
"Right, that's me, because I believe ordination how we have today in the church has been perverted. Is that hard to believe JohnB? There are many examples of GOD'S people doing this in the past. Now, I could be wrong, but I have been exploring this as a possibility. So discussing this with you is a blessing, thank you my brother!"

What are saying here? Are you saying that today we have men who are ordained who are not fit for ordination? Are you saying that in Christ's day, all who were ordained were holy men who were saved? How has ordination been perverted? Is it because unholy men are now ordained or because women are now ordained, something never seen in the history of the Christian church? Did Jesus pervert the ordination process when He ordained Judas? What Scripture gave you the idea that ordination should be abolished? Where did you pull this new doctrine from?

No, many of them are not.

Peace


Jason: "What are saying here? Are you saying that today we have men who are ordained who are not fit for ordination?"



EGW: "There are some who are adapted to the work of the colporteur and who can accomplish more in this line than by preaching. If the Spirit of Christ dwells in their hearts, they will find opportunity to present His word to others and to direct minds to the special truths for this time. Men suited to this work undertake it; but some injudicious minister flatters them that their gifts should be employed in preaching instead of in the work of the colporteur.Thus they are influenced to get a license to preach, and the very ones who might have been trained to make good missionaries to visit families at their homes, to talk and pray with them, are turned away from a work for which they are fitted, to make poor ministers, and the field where so much labor is needed and where so much good might be accomplished is neglected."


Yup! There many pastors who are not fitted be to an "ordained" pastor.



Jason: "Are you saying that in Christ's day, all who were ordained were holy men who were saved?"



No, we all are sinners, but Jesus decided, you know GOD the son, He decided who should do what within His Church.



Jason:"How has ordination been perverted?"



I just think we have taken ordination and made it to something



Judas: "Did Jesus pervert the ordination process when He ordained Judas?"




No, GOD chooses who HE wants. He choose EGW to lead, you know the E in EGW is not for Edward... It's for Ellen, she's a women whose writings are use by SDA for guidance. Her words have more say over any ordained pastor in the SDA Church. True ordaintion is when GOD chooses who HE wants and us recognizing it.




Jason: "What Scripture gave you the idea that ordination should be abolished?"




Not not talking about banning ordination as a whole, just the part that makes pastors ordained. Because nobody has a problem with ordaining people, men or women on other levels of office. The brothers in Tenn. gave up their ordination papers as pastors. It's not the end of the world Jason. Are they wrong for doing that?




Jason: " Where did you pull this new doctrine from?"



I know right, it's a bold idea.. But it will quash this WO debate!!



Blessings!!
Reasoning said: " I know right, it's a bold idea.. But it will quash this WO debate!!"

Really? Just abolished something God has ordained? Let us be logical here and think:bThere is a controversy with the Sabbath; are you saying we should just abolish the Sabbath thing and just unite? ...

Reasoning said, "Can I ask you, is it OK for the church to lay Hands on them , pray for them and acknowledge what the Holy Spirit, GOD has called them to do in HIS Church?"

Yes.

 

 Reasoning said, "So I ask you, is there something more specific in the Bible that says a woman can't be a leader of a flock within GOD'S Church?

Of course if she is married she is still subjected to her husband, but maybe GOD didn't choose her husband to be a pastor/ leader like she is, who knows, his calling might be in the music ministry, but he is always leader as her husband."

This is where I have see a red herring. I don't make that same initial connection. Perhaps my approach came from a different direction. I look at the OT & NT theme where God is only represented in a male model. Father, brother, husband descriptors of God; male priesthood at a time when male/female priesthood was common and a religious norm. For two thousand years of NT church we have continued with a NT male priesthood (I use that term in the sense of overseer as the term 'pastor' is a relatively new term) and have yet to see a theological reason to change what I believe is a theology-based practice.

I believe that the emancipation of women and subsequent feminist movements is now in the third wave which entails bringing "the church" in line with the current cultural attitudes of the western world. Now it is not equality that is being demanded but equivalence. I believe that God makes a distinction between the genders which is ably and simply demonstrated in the difference in their roles in the reproductive cycle. 

I am convicted thus far that the role of pastor or overseer was reserved for men.

As always, I hope this helps. Blessings.

Peace

  JohnB: " For two thousand years of NT church we have continued with a NT male priesthood (I use that term in the sense of overseer as the term 'pastor' is a relatively new term) and have yet to see a theological reason to change what I believe is a theology-based practice."

 

  What makes a man part of this male priesthood brother JohnB?

   My thinking is by the Holy Spirit,  GOD calls and moves a person to serve in HIS Church, GOD came to Paul to preach the gospel, HE also came to EGW to preach the gospel. They both wrote by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Besides the Bible, EGW writings are considered the lesser light to the greater light, and her writings are over any ordained man in the SDA Church. GOD choose that, not man. So what if she wasn't ordained by man within the SDA Church, GOD has ordained her to be a leader ("overseer").

  Apart from what men do to make other men leaders, "overseers", can we agree EGW and her writings is over every man as a leader and overseer within the SDA Church?

 I believe when GOD ordains a person to lead it doesn't have be in the lines of what's required for males to be ordained in the SDA Church. Degrees aren't really needed, the laying on of hands doesn't qualify a man to be a leader in GOD'S Church.  

  JohnB: "I believe that the emancipation of women and subsequent feminist movements is now in the third wave which entails bringing "the church" in line with the current cultural attitudes of the western world. Now it is not equality that is being demanded but equivalence. I believe that God makes a distinction between the genders which is ably and simply demonstrated in the difference in their roles in the reproductive cycle." 

 

  Break down that reproductive cycle thing to me please....

 

 Blessings!

Amen!

Reasoning - "EGW writings are considered the lesser light to the greater light,"

Just a bit off topic but I need to clarify this. My opnion is that EGW Whites writings is not necessarily the only "lesser light". If we isolate say Daniels writings and compare it with the rest of scripture and EGW then in that comparison, Daniels writings would also be the lesser light against the rest of Bible scripture plus EGW together. On this I could be on shaky ground but it is my line of thinking for now.

Peace


ZJ: "Just a bit off topic but I need to clarify this. My opnion is that EGW Whites writings is not necessarily the only "lesser light". If we isolate say Daniels writings and compare it with the rest of scripture and EGW then in that comparison, Daniels writings would also be the lesser light against the rest of Bible scripture plus EGW together. On this I could be on shaky ground but it is my line of thinking for now."



Though the Bible writings and the writings of EGW is lead by the same Spirit, but the Bible is the Bible, the Bible is the only thing to test and see if things are true.




And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17. – {CSA 68.1}
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39. – {CSA 68.2}
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18, 19. – {CSA 68.3}
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:19, 20. – {CSA 68.4}
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11. – {CSA 68.5}
The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. [103] – {CSA 68.6}



"The Bible gives four basic tests by which a prophet is to be examined. Mrs. White’s work stands each test. – {CCh 29.4}
The message of the true prophet must be in harmony with the law of God and the messages of the prophets. Isaiah 8:20. – {CCh 29.5}
The E. G. White writings elevate the law of God and ever lead men and women to the Bible in its entirety. She points to the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice and as the great light to which her writings, “the lesser light,” lead. – {CCh 29.6}




The book of Daniel is in the Bible, the Bible is the true test, EGW writings leads us to the Bible, but it must be tested by the Bible as well.


Blessings!

As always, Reasoning, grace & peace to you. 

You said, "My thinking is by the Holy Spirit,  GOD calls and moves a person to serve in HIS Church, GOD came to Paul to preach the gospel, HE also came to EGW to preach the gospel. They both wrote by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Besides the Bible, EGW writings are considered the lesser light to the greater light, and her writings are over any ordained man in the SDA Church. GOD choose that, not man. So what if she wasn't ordained by man within the SDA Church, GOD has ordained her to be a leader ("overseer")."

 

We are not talking about "leaders", we are talking about ordained pastors. To be able to understand what I am saying we have to focus on the fact that we are talking about one specific leadership role, not about "leaders" in general. For example, in the OT we have women performing various roles but God, not man, sets aside the priesthood as being male-only. God sets one specific role aside as being only for men. I do not believe that all leadership roles have been set aside for men, only the role of ordained pastor.

 

You say that God has ordained EGW to be a leader ("overseer") but such a statement only confuses the point of argument as we are speaking of the role of ordained pastor. Whenever WO is discussed there is a tendency to confuse ordination by God with the physical act of men setting another aside and signifying that fact by the physical act of laying on of hands. In this discussion the subject is the latter, not the former, when we speak about ordination to an office in the church.

Everybody and anybody can be ordained of God to the gospel work. Every single member of the Church, man, woman and child is called to follow Christ's commission to "Go ye therefore" however, not everyone is called to be an ordained Minister. Sis White was not ordained into any office by the Church and did not claim to be a leader. 

“I am not, as I said yesterday, a prophet. I do not claim to be a leader; I claim to be simply a messenger of God, and that is all I have ever claimed.”—DF 108a, W. E. Cornell report, in AGD to WCW, May 23, 1906.

Her reference to the Sabbath meeting was to words she used in speaking of the appellations people had applied to her. Here are her words from the Sabbath meeting:

They say she is a prophetess, they say she is this and that and the other thing—I claim to be no such thing. I will tell you what I want you all to know, that I am a messenger that God has taken from a feeble, very feeble child, and in my girlhood gave me a message, and here you see the effects that made me what I am, a cruel stone thrown by a hand and broke my nose, and thereby I have been made an invalid for life.... Now I want to tell you this, that Mrs. White does not call herself a prophetess or a leader of this people. She calls herself simply a messenger....

Some who are not belonging to our church ... listen to Mrs. White, and you know what my testimony has been though, and the same testimony has been borne from that time that you have heard, and long before, to the people. I have not gone back on one sentiment on temperance, not one sentiment religiously. It is just the same, and that is why I was to write it, that it should go to the people, and that it should live all through the half century.— Ibid.

What she said in the Sunday meeting was this:

I want you [“those who have got the books that God has bidden me to write when that hand trembled so that it seemed an impossibility”] to read the books—Patriarchs and Prophets (I expected to have them here on the stand before us), Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, Ministry of Healing[, which] is nearly done, and a great many other books. I am not, as I said yesterday, a prophet. I do not claim to be a leader; I claim to be simply a messenger of God, and that is all I have ever claimed.— Ibid.

Ellen G. White: The Early Elmshaven Years: 1900-1905 (vol. 5) by Arthur White, p. 354

 

You said, "Apart from what men do to make other men leaders, "overseers", can we agree EGW and her writings is over every man as a leader and overseer within the SDA Church?

 I believe when GOD ordains a person to lead it doesn't have be in the lines of what's required for males to be ordained in the SDA Church. Degrees aren't really needed, the laying on of hands doesn't qualify a man to be a leader in GOD'S Church."  

 

I feel that you have again stepped outside the bounds of what we are actually discussing. You cannot draw a comparison between the Spirit of Prophecy and pastors. The argument has never been about whether women can be leaders but whether they can be ordained pastors. We have always had women leaders in our denomination but not as ordained pastors. As soon as you step outside the bounds of the conversation you muddy the argument. The discussion is about ordination as a pastor, not being called to do a work for God.

All members of the church are called to work. All members of the church are not called to be ordained pastors.

You said, "Break down that reproductive cycle thing to me please...."

Simply... Women gestate - men don't. Women lactate - men don't. A man and a woman may be equally a parent to a child but there is no equivalence. No matter how much equality a man may claim he can never develop and carry a child in his body nor can he breastfeed the child afterwards. Nature, biology, creation, teaches us that equality does not mean equivalence.

Hope this helps. Blessings.

Peace


JohnB: "Whenever WO is discussed there is a tendency to confuse ordination by God with the physical act of men setting another aside and signifying that fact by the physical act of laying on of hands"



I'm not confusing the two, I've been saying they are two different things, we agree.. I'm saying what man does with ordaining other men as pastors doesn't mean that man is meant for that position.

But what GOD chooses is for sure, when HE chooses and ordains a man or women to pastor people, then that person is meant for that position. It doesn't matter if that person went through the laying on of hands by men or not.



EGW: "Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification."



The laying on of hands didn't add no new qualification, it was what GOD choose. GOD choose a woman to lead, she may have not said it, but the proof is there. Paul was a messager, EGW was a messager, GOD choose them to do same work, which is preach the gospel.

Right the two are getting confuse, your focus on what man does, and I'm focusing on what GOD does.




JohnB: "I feel that you have again stepped outside the bounds of what we are actually discussing. You cannot draw a comparison between the Spirit of Prophecy and pastors. The argument has never been about whether women can be leaders but whether they can be ordained pastors. We have always had women leaders in our denomination but not as ordained pastors. As soon as you step outside the bounds of the conversation you muddy the argument. The discussion is about ordination as a pastor, not being called to do a work for God."



You believe EGW was one of these women that was a leader in the SDA Church?


Correct, I'm not talking about ordaintion of men that makes men ordained pastors. I'm focus on who GOD chooses to do what within HIS Church.



I have some more thoughts, but I have to go... Be back later.. Thank you brother JohnB, blessings!! :)

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