Adventist Online

Male Adventist Pastors Forgo Ordination Credentials in Solidarity with Unordained Women


I am honored to say that my pastor was one of those who turned in his Ordination credentials for Commissioned...In addition two Unions have suspended ordination altogether.


http://www.religionnews.com/2015/10/15/male-adventist-pastors-forgo...

Views: 1614

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Dear Reasoning, thank you for your kind comments, I shall endeavour to live up to them. Grace and peace to you.

I think a lot of my response to this post is going to be the same as my response to the last post as I think that a lot of your reply does not, IMHO, go to the actual issue.  I believe that part of the reason may be not separating this one leadership role from all the others.

 

You raise the excellent point of the priesthood of all believers, we are all - man, woman and child - priests of God. However, within that the father/husband was the "High Priest" of the family and overseers were raised up over the churches. So there are versions within the version, if you get my point. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not necessarily universal to all, different gifts to different folk. All receive gifts but not all are gifted in the same way.

As to the point of EGW as a leader, certainly she was(is) regarded as a leader but that does not go to the point of discussion - unless only ordained pastors can lead.

 

Next I feel that we are discussing God's ideal but judging it by man's failings. I agree that some have answered a call that was not to them but far be it from me to decide who God has called to do what. However, there is one point that I have to wrestle with: if a man came to me and said that God has called him to give birth to a child, I would have to disagree with him. Not because I am able to second guess God but because it goes against what God has already ordained.

 

I also agree with you in not putting my trust in men but again we are talking about the principle not the practice. Just as I have met some who should not have become pastors I have met others who really should but it is not about the individuals.

 

How do we know whom God chooses? You are right about the fruit but what about that man who is great with children, has shown himself to be a loving and gifted parent/guardian and now states that God has called him to give birth? It may well be an absurd example but I am sure that you understand my point.

 

I am extremely cautious about any move to disturb what I see as the order that God has set up wherein He presents as a male model.

 

I am not sure exactly what the point is of your references to EGW.

 

You say, "EGW received her commission from GOD HIMSELF as well... didn't need to be ordained by men as a pastor to do the work as a pastor. How is her commission from GOD different from Paul's?

EGW was called to be God's messenger, she was not called to be an ordained pastor."

 

As you say, God called EGW and He didn't call her to be a Minister (Pastor)... So isn't this more in support of what I am saying? At the moment I see it that God has not called women to fulfil the role of ordained Pastor but man is demanding that He has... and it is this (IMHO) that is driving this movement.

 

Look at the history: there is a request to ordain women - the majority of the church reject it. So a request is made for Divisions to be able to ordain as they see fit - again the majority of the church rejects it. Some Unions then claim the ability to decide but this is also denied. So the next move is to attempt to get rid of ordination altogether. The spirit of this movement is an extremely selfish one, humanistic feminism dressed up in spiritual clothes prepared to wreck the church if the movement's demands are not met. In all honesty Reasoning, as I look at the spirit that leads, no, dominates, this movement I am more than ever convinced that the movement to ordain women is not of God.

 

One last point.

 

I am finding it hard to keep up with the responses to you as they are spread about. I get the feeling from your replies that this is also causing you some continuity problems / frustrations.

 

Can I suggest that, if possible you blend all your replies into one reply so that we might be able to bring some order and a logical progression to our discussion? I will respond individually to any other replies that you have made thus far.

 

Hope this helps, blessings.

Peace

JohnB: "am extremely cautious about any move to disturb what I see as the order that God has set up wherein He presents as a male model."



I understand this order after the fall between husband and wife, before they were equal.. Before Jesus did away with the earthy priestly duties that males were overseers, in the NT Jesus choose men to lead His church, but He also choose a woman to lead His last day church. In my view Jesus has changed the male model.



Again I understand your view, your saying since the husband is the leader of the wife and family, and in the OT the priest were men, and Jesus choose men to preach the gospel, that tells us only men can ordained pastors and could be head leader of a church.



I would've agreed with you a long time ago, but with Jesus choosing a woman to be a leader, a overseer of His last day church has me thinking the model has changed and gender doesn't matter. What man decides and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification."




JohnB: "As you say, God called EGW and He didn't call her to be a Minister (Pastor)... So isn't this more in support of what I am saying? At the moment I see it that God has not called women to fulfil the role of ordained Pastor but man is demanding that He has... and it is this (IMHO) that is driving this movement."



That's the thing brother, she was a minister for GOD. I'm saying men didn't have to validate what GOD already choose, she didn't need to be ordained by the church men. That was my point on this quote



EGW: "Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification."



So when you say EGW wasn't a ordained pastor within the church by men laying hands on her in a ceremony, I agree with you. But she already received her commission from GOD HIMSELF to be a leader, a overseer, pastor of HIS last day church. Just like HE choose men in the NT to preach, lead, oversee, HE choose a women to do the same in EGW.


For me no matter if hands are layed on someone or not to ordain them as a pastor, it doesn't decide who GOD has chosen to pastor and oversee.


I know you agree EGW was a leader, pastor, but she just wasn't ordained by men as one.. and I'm like o.k.... But GOD chooses.



JohnB:"So the next move is to attempt to get rid of ordination altogether.
The spirit of this movement is an extremely selfish one, humanistic feminism dressed up in spiritual clothes prepared to wreck the church if the movement's demands are not met. In all honesty Reasoning, as I look at the spirit that leads, no, dominates, this movement I am more than ever convinced that the movement to ordain women is not of God."



Brother JohnB, I'm not part of the movement to ordain women, I would like to see peace on this issue. So I did call for banning ordination of pastors altogether, if it was done then it'll be peace. Let me ask, what would you think and do if this movement succeed in getting the church to ordain women?



Blessings!


Ellen White was never a leader nor an overseer. The leaders at one time sent her to Australia against her wishes.

Peace


Jason: "Ellen White was never a leader nor an overseer. The leaders at one time sent her to Australia against her wishes."



Yeah brother Jason I heard that, I don't know what was going on in regards to that issue.
I understand she wasn't a ordained pastor that's done by the ceremony of laying on of hands and given papers as a ordained pastor by the SDA church. I understand the requirements and rules of the church to be a ordained pastor.


What I'm saying is that GOD chooses, HIS requirements are different on who HE ordains to do the work of a leader, minister, teacher, messager and having writings that's the SOP, you said "Ellen White is the prophet for this end time remnant Church...".


What JohnB is saying is that GOD has chosen men in the NT, showing a pattern that goes back to the OT. But I'm saying that pattern changed when HE choose EGW to be a leader, minister, "prophet", HE used her to write for HIS last day church. The laying on of hands and being officially titled ordained pastor didn't need to happen.



EGW: "Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification."



Paul and Barnabas, men, received their commission first, meaning GOD ordained them to do a work within HIS Church before the ceremony. The ceremony added no new grace or virtual qualification, so if it didn't happen that wouldn't have change who GOD ordained them to be within HIS Church. Don't get me wrong, the ceremony is just, because it's an acknowledgement and prayers of who GOD has already choose and position for HIS Church.


Brother Jason when you say EGW was never a leader, your definition by needing men's stamp of approval, I say your correct.. But by GOD'S stamp of approval she was.


That's why I'm pushing and analyzing the ordaintion ceremony, what I see is, yes, it's Biblical, but it's not what made the men of the NT who they were and what gave them their positions and titles.. GOD already gave them that before the ceremony. It was an acknowledgment and prayer for who GOD already ordained.


EGW didn't need the acknowledgment of men with an ordaintion ceremony to make her an ordain pastor on paper, she was already ordained by GOD to be leader, a pastor, to preach, minister, have prophetic gifts, the SOP. I'm sure understanding that she followed what was and still is church business, that only ordained people(men) could decide where to use people in the church. They decided to send her to Australia, so she went. But if it was against her wishes, was it against where GOD wanted her to be? I don't know, but from what I understand, she had wonderful years in Australia.


Again, your thinking church business leadership or overseer, that only ordain pastors can be within the church... and I'm talking about Spiritual leadership and overseer that GOD chooses for HIS Church, and EGW was that. Just like GOD choose men in the NT, HE choose a woman for HIS last day Church.


For the pro WO people, I ask why is the ceremony done by men so important to be performed for women?... be who GOD has ordained you to be. It seems like EGW did really well as a pastor in GOD'S Church without having a ceremony to make her an ordained pastor by the church.


The anti WO people, don't make ordaintion more than what it is, which in its true form is an acknowledgment of who GOD has already choose and commissioned for HIS Church.


Blessings!

The choosing of EGW, a woman, as a prophet or messenger is nothing new. God has, from the beginning chosen women as prophetess, it's nothing new. There is no Scripture or evidence to support your claim that God changed the order of things when he chose a lady. 

Peace

 Jason:"The choosing of EGW, a woman, as a prophet or messenger is nothing new. God has, from the beginning chosen women as prophetess, it's nothing new. There is no Scripture or evidence to support your claim that God changed the order of things when he chose a lady." 

  Agreed,  EGW is like the women and men from the past whom GOD choose and ordained to lead, minister, preach, pastor to HIS people. I'm saying what man chooses to or not to do doesn't change who GOD has already chosen and for what position within HIS Curch. That's why I keep showing the quote from SOP.

 

  EGW: "Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification."

 Yes, they did preform the ceremony, but if it didn't happen it wouldn't have changed what GOD had already commissioned. I think there's a perception that the ceremony of the laying on of hands does add new grace or virtual qualification.

 True ordination is simply acknowledging who GOD has already choose and what position within HIS Church, praying and asking GOD for HIS continued blessings for that person.

 The other side of that true ordination ceremony is the paper work and title of "ordained pastor", that's just for men, I respect the system, but it's not what true ordination is in my view.

 Take EGW and put aside the title of "ordained pastor",  if she was alive today would it be ok to have a ordination ceremony recognizing her as a prophet, leader, pastor, messenger for the Church?

 Again I'm not talking about her having the paper work, file with the state and title as being an ordained pastor, I'm just asking would it have been ok to have a ordination ceremony with the laying on of hands recognizing her as a messenger, pastor, leader, prophet for the Church?

 

  Blessings Brother Jason! :)

  "JohnB, you the man bro... Jason, take lessons.. Thank you for your post and your good spirit."

Agreed. I may not agree with John on gender issues but this man has my respect. He is trully a follower of God.  Always a wonderful experience debating with you John.

She is the Overseer of the SDA Church, posthumously.

Here are my thoughts, and I am female.    This debate went to Texas and I honestly feel the Lord spoke on his decision, hence the reason we have the decision that was made.  Yet many of us our still disturbed by this decision.  

It is time for us to fall in Love with God and do as he desires. We quote scriptures that we change, which in itself is scary to me, because the scriptures speak about us changing times and laws.    But it is to please ourselves.   We need to make this about God, not EGW, she is not God, and not about ourselves.  

I remember hearing that I need to be at that Conference, but was unable to make it.    I later heard, I needed you at the Conference but you didn't make it, but it is ok, all is well.   I got home and looked at the posts and was advised that the decision had been made. 

People, time is short, Jesus is coming back.  Get it together, make this about God and not ourselves.    God is not a God of confusion, and there is no way he would say no in one spot and yes in another.   He changeth not..   Please help me.

In need of Prayer 

Amen I like your post, and you are right the WO has been voted down 3 times now. Would we think that that would be God's message to the church? Sadly I dare say it will come up before the GC session again in 2020, that is if not Christ has retuned before then. I find it sad when people and in particular Leaders of the church can not hear what God is saying.

So we see by this the church is no where ready for the Lord's return. I see some like to pick out texts that suit them at the time and says that other texts are not relevant. I see some twist God's word to suit the situation they are fronted with.

If they can be dishonest with God's word one wonder what relationship the really have with God? 

I agree with your statements. God's church ought to be united, not divided.

Perhaps this might not be the right place to suggest that as a Church we practice prima scriptura not sola scriptura?

RSS

Site Sponsors

 

Adventist Single?
Meet other Single
Adventists here:
Join Free


USA members:

Support AO by
using this link:
Amazon.com

 

© 2019   Created by Clark P.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service