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What is the mark of the beast?

What is the Seal of God?

Revelation 13:1-8, Revelation 14:9-18

Is the mark of the beast a number tattooed on your arm, hand or forehead? Is it a chip inserted under the skin that can be scanned by technology? 

 

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Hello Reasoning,

The concocting of terms like pagan Rome or Papal Rome does not hide the fact nor the truth of the fact from the bible that the Papacy is not the beast which received the deadly wound.  Only by making this leap can such a view be supported. Uriah Smith’s strange interpretation lend itself to distorting the context of these passages by transforming the beast into some other made up figure.

The fourth beast of Daniel which is the first beast of Revelation is explained in Daniel.

23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth…

This kingdom is Rome labeling it pagan or papal distort that truth. A question was asked:

“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

It is this beast which received the deadly wound; this is the Roman empire.

…The beast (the first beast) was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42.

The first beast was given authority to continue, it now has a mouth. The second beast had two horns like a lamb it speaks, like a dragon, and this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast.

The little horn is not a head, it’s a horn but it will be one that is present upon all seven heads.

Peace

Gene wrote: "The concocting of terms like pagan Rome or Papal Rome does not hide the fact nor the truth of the fact from the bible that the Papacy is not the beast which received the deadly wound."

 I'm not concocting anything, you already believe the beast of Dan.7 with the little horn is pagan Rome and papal Rome or the papacy respectively. Yes or no? If yes, then pointing out the difference is ok, why? Because there's a difference when the little horn comes on the set, it's reglious, a false Christianity with pagan roots, it's untied with the state. 


Brother Gene, im sorry, I'm not going by what you say and teach, or for that matter what the SDA Church teaches, it just so happens the SDA has the knowledge on this subject. I believe the Bible is clear on explaining itself, let's stay focus here...

I asked, Can we agree It's the same description of the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13? In other words can we agree they are the same entity, which is the papacy?


 


Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Brother Gene, we are in agreement, the little horn is the papacy... This little horn/ papacy has eyes and a mouth and speak great things against the Most High... Shall wear out the saints of GOD, and given into the hand of the little horn for 1260 years. 

 Brother Gene, ironically there is another entity in Rev.13 that fits the same description, 

Rev.13: 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Ok Gene, let's focus on this head that was wounded and eventually healed up. 


4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Gene, you agree the fourth beast and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome. 

Gene wrote: "We do agree that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 is “Pagan Rome” or the Roman Empire."

 Again, you already agreed the fourth beast is pagan Rome and you agree the little horn on the fourth beast of Dan.7 is the papacy, so you can't deny the papacy is untied with the state to make this war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years.

 and again, you believe the first beast spoken of In Rev.13 is pagan Rome as well, now, this is where and how we connect the dots, the head spoken of does the same things as the little horn in Dan.7....  and for the same amount of time...  So the Bible is clearly showing us the little horn with eyes and a mouth in Dan.7 and the head in Rev.13 is the same. 

Do you think pagan Rome and the papacy/papal Rome will be spoken of in Dan.7 and in Rev.13 it just speaks about pagan Rome and mysteriously leave out the papacy? 

No, it doesn't, the head in Rev.13 does the same thing as the little horn of Dan.7, so that means the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13 is the papacy, part of and untied with the beast (pagan Rome). 

 “The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptized. ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope.” ..


"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor’s disappearance. ... The Roman church ... pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation.”


I got these quotes from amazing facts, but they didn't site the source. Is it true or not is the question? 

 

 Gene wrote: "This kingdom is Rome labeling it pagan or papal distort that truth. A question was asked:
“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”
It is this beast which received the deadly wound; this is the Roman empire."

I don't agree, I'm not distorting the truth, your the one trying to ignore the papacy's role, and the description given for the papacy in Rev.13, it's just like in Dan.7 with the little horn, which you acknowledge is papacy, but for some reason you can't acknowledge the obvious, that the head spoken of in Rev.13 is the papacy. Let's look at the description again 


Rev.13 : 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Gene, it's the same as the little horn in Dan.7..... The 42 months is 1260 days, which is 1260 years. Also, you didn't answer my question, you said we agree about the papacy and its relation to 1260 year prophecy, I asked you what do we exactly agree on in regards to the papacy and the 1260 year prophecy? 

Blessings! 

Reasoning said,

"I asked, Can we agree It's the same description of the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13? In other words can we agree they are the same entity, which is the papacy?"

I assume you’re speaking of the head which received the deadly wound; then no, they are not the same.

Staying focus as you suggest, the seven heads are those of the first beast of Revelation 13, the fourth beast of Daniel.  There are two beasts in Revelation 13. Daniel says,

The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Historically, this has been the Roman Empire. So, the Roman Empire is this beast with seven heads as the bible defines these heads as mountains or kingdom.

Which head received the deadly wound? Obviously this first head, the Roman Empire head.

When this deadly wound had healed, three of the ten horns had been removed leaving the beast with seven heads and seven horns. The little horn is a different horn than the seven, Daniel explains this.

20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

The little horn as other bible describes it:

  • the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others,
  • the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.
  • It was more terrifying than any of the others.

The horn was not on the first head when it received the deadly wound, the horn was established when the wound healed.

10And there are seven kings… 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Here we see there is an eighth king or horn because we are told that horns are kings.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings.

Seven kings, one king for each head of the beast, but there is an eight king that is part of the whole. It will be an imposing figure on each head; erected on the first head after the deadly wound healed.

Peace

Gene wrote: "I assume you’re speaking of the head which received the deadly wound; then no, they are not same."

Gene wrote: "We do agree that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 is “Pagan Rome” or the Roman Empire."

 Ok, let's take it slower... Can we agree the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome or Roman Empire?  and if so, what are the similarities in your view? 

 Can we also agree the fourth beast of Dan. 7 is united with the papacy/ Catholic Church, and with that unification went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years? 

 

Now, if you agree the fourth beast of Dan.7 and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome (which I agree with)....  and you agree the little horn is the papacy, which the Bible said will make war with the saints of GOD, then you believe the Catholic Church is united with the Roman Empire to make this war.  Do you believe that? 

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptized. ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope.” ..

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor’s disappearance. ... The Roman church ... pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation.”

I got these quotes from amazing facts, but they didn't site the source. Is it true or not is the question?

Also, you didn't answer my question, you said we agree about the papacy and its relation to 1260 year prophecy, I asked you what do we exactly agree on in regards to the papacy and the 1260 year prophecy? 

 You acknowledge the papacy's role as the little horn on the fourth beast in Dan.7, but when we come to Rev.13, which you agree is talking about the same thing, the Roman Empire, but you are failing to acknowledge the papacy's role. I'm just pointing out to you that the Bible gives the same description of the papacy in Dan.7 & Rev.13, with the same time period of 1260 years as well. 

Rev.13:13 : 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [1260 years]


6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Look at the similarities brother Gene, 

Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [1260 years]

 So, I'm not denying the Roman Empire is spoken of in Rev.13, but I'm not overlooking the description of the papacy like yourself. This is our main difference and disagreement.. But hey, believe what you will. 

Bless! 

Hello Reasoning,

I understand the distinction you are attempting to make between “pagan” Rome, the Roman Empire and “Papal” Rome which was extension of it. The Roman empire had a vast culture, it absorbed other cultures as it conquered them. It also had a Christian culture before Papal Rome dominance. After Christianity evolved on the world scene all other religions have been considered pagan, even Judaism to some degree.

You asked, “Can we also agree the fourth beast of Dan. 7 is united with the papacy/ Catholic Church…”

So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years.

The question then is when in history did this occur? The Church says it begin in 538 AD and ended with the deadly wound in 1798, but the bible says.

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

The previous verse tells us when.

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed…

Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints.

Again, my question is when? The bible says it was after the deadly wound, the SDA church says it was in 538 AD before the deadly wound.

In 538 AD the Papacy wasn’t established. It did not have civil authority, the church bishop of Rome only had authority in churches and this was a recognition given by the Roman emperor in 531.  The church bishop did not even have the authority to elect the popes of the church, this authority came from the emperor of the Roman empire.

Justinian who was the emperor at this time killed a lot of people, including the saints. Here are a few quotes from the historian Procopius, Byzantine historian whose works are an indispensable source for his period and contain much geographical information. From 527 to 531 he was adviser (consilarius) to the military commander Belisarius on his first Persian campaign. www.britannica.com

This is from his writing Procopius: Secret History: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/proc/shp/shp21.htm

“Agents were sent everywhere to force whomever they chanced upon to renounce the faith of their fathers. This, which seemed impious to rustic people, caused them to rebel against those who gave them such an order. Thus many perished at the hands of the persecuting faction, and others did away with themselves, foolishly thinking this the holier course of two evils; but most of them by far quitted the land of their fathers, and fled the country. The Montanists, who dwelt in Phrygia, shut themselves up in their churches, set them on fire, and ascended to glory in the flames. And thenceforth the whole Roman Empire was a scene of massacre and flight.”

Under this chapter, XVIII. HOW JUSTINIAN KILLED A TRILLION PEOPLE

He starts out by saying,

“THAT Justinian was not a man, but a demon, as I have said, in human form, one might prove by considering the enormity of the evils he brought upon mankind…”

“…Furthermore the persecution of the Samaritans and the so-called heretics filled the Roman realm with blood. Let this present recapitulation suffice to recall what I have described more fully a little while since. Such were the things done to all mankind by the demon in flesh for which Justinian, as Emperor, was responsible. But what evils he wrought against men by some hidden power and diabolic force I shall now relate…”

“…During his rule over the Romans, many disasters of various kinds occurred: which some said were due to the presence and artifices of the Devil, and others considered were effected by the Divinity, Who, disgusted with the Roman Empire, had turned away from it and given the country up to the Old One. The Scirtus River flooded Edessa, creating countless sufferings among the inhabitants, as I have elsewhere written. The Nile, rising as usual, but not subsiding…”

So, my quest is when did this continuation begin? Was in 538 before the deadly wound or sometime later? When was the church given civil authority and join with the state to make war with the saints? It was during the 42 months, after the deadly wound healed.

Peace


Gene wrote: "I understand the distinction you are attempting to make between “pagan” Rome, the Roman Empire and “Papal” Rome which was extension of it. "


 The Bible has made the distinction, when the little horn came on the scene there was a distinction, pagan Rome infuse with papal Rome. I know the Catholic Church was on the scene before this, but the Bible is referring to the time when all three horns was plucked up, it can't be before that.


Gene wrote: "The Roman empire had a vast culture, it absorbed other cultures as it conquered them. It also had a Christian culture before Papal Rome dominance. After Christianity evolved on the world scene all other religions have been considered pagan, even Judaism to some degree."


  Again, we're speaking about the time after the three horns were plucked up... When the little horn/papacy/Catholic church was united with the state. Again, even though the Catholic Church was around before the three horns was plucked up, the Bible acknowledges the little horn as coming up and united with the state when the three horns were plucked up. 


Gene wrote: "So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."


 Would you happen to believe it was some time after all three horns were plucked up? (I found your answer on another post)

Gene wrote: "1260 years from 544 [554] brings us the 1814...."

The 1260 years in Dan.7 was referring to the papacy united with all of Rome, we agree on that, and once again, you believe the first beast of Rev.13 and the fourth beast of Dan.7 is Rome and "at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years".... We agree!!!!

Now, if the little horn on the fourth beast in Dan.7 represents the papacy, and the first beast in Rev.13 is the same beast (in far as Daniel and John seeing the same empire) then the head which has a mouth and spoke arrogant words against the Most High and made war with the saints is the papacy. You seem to agree


Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."

 I will address this and your 1260 year time frame interpretation on another post... I think we're getting closer on agreeing... Because more and more you seem to believe what SDA teach. But hey, I said it seems that way. Thank you my brother.

bless! 

Reason said,

I'm not overlooking the description of the papacy like yourself.

I’m not overlooking the Papacy, if the first beast is the Roman empire which we agree.  The other beast must be the Papacy beast.

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

It has a mouth and it speaks and exercised all the authority of the first beast. It unites with the first beast and exercise the authority.

Peace


Gene wrote: "I’m not overlooking the Papacy, if the first beast is the Roman empire which we agree. The other beast must be the Papacy beast."


brother Gene, you don't even see yourself overlooking the papacy in regards to the first Beast spoken of in Rev.13, or maybe you do? 

 I'm not getting into verse 11 right now, which speaks of another beast. You continuing to jump to that shows in my view that your trying to gloss over the identifying characteristics of the head on the first beast spoken of in Rev.13. The head is on the first beast spoken of in Rev.13. Why are you going to the other beast? Can we stay focused on the fourth beast of Dan.7 & first beast in Rev.13 please? Thanks 

 The time is late, so I'll respond to your post and answer your questions tomorrow. Thank you! Blessings! :) 

The Roman empire beast crucified Jesus, it persecuted the Christian church until the Edict of Milan. Going forward to the days of emperor Justinian, this is what we find.

Moreover, while he was encouraging civil strife and frontier warfare to confound the Romans, with only one thought in his mind, that the earth should run red with human blood and he might acquire more and more booty, he invented a new means of murdering his subjects.

Now among the Christians in the entire Roman Empire, there are many with dissenting trines, which are called heresies by the established church: such as those of the Montanists and Sabbatians, and whatever others cause the minds of men to wander from the true path.

All of these beliefs he (Emperor Justinian) ordered to be abolished, and their place taken by the orthodox dogma: threatening, among the punishments for disobedience, loss of the heretic's right to will property to his children or other relatives.

Now the churches of these so-called heretics, especially those belonging to the Arian dissenters, were almost incredibly wealthy. Neithr all the Senate put together nor the greatest unit of the Roman Empire, had anything in property comparable to that of these churches. For their gold and silver treasures, and stores of precious stones, were beyond telling or numbering: they owned mansions and whole villages, land all over the world, and everything else that is counted as wealth among men.

 As none of the previous Emperors had molested these churches, many men, even those of the orthodox faith, got their livelihood by working on their estates. But the Emperor Justinian, in confiscating these properties, at, the same time took away what for many people had been their only means of earning a living.

 Agents were sent everywhere to force whomever they chanced upon to renounce the faith of their fathers. This, which seemed impious to rustic people, caused them to rebel against those who gave them such an order. Thus many perished at the hands of the persecuting faction, and others did away with themselves, foolishly thinking this the holier course of two evils; but most of them by far quitted the land of their fathers, and fled the country. The Montanists, who dwelt in Phrygia, shut themselves up in their churches, set them on fire, and ascended to glory in the flames. And thenceforth the whole Roman Empire was a scene of massacre and flight.

So, the Roman empire beast did the exact same thing as the little horn would do as it developed.

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

The Roman Empire beast was given a mouth and the authority to act for 42 months. The beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God.

The opening of the mouth is conducted by another beast. The first beast and the mouth are two different entities, this is shown by the act of the beast being given the mouth.

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

The mouth speaks through the second beast. It exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

The first beast will continue for 42 months as stated in verse 6, and through the second beast who exercised all the authority of the first beast, the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

The second beast does the first beast bidding, it wages war against the saints just like the first beast had done; this will be done for 42 months or 1260 days.

The little horn is another beast, it will persecute the saints just as the first beast. It will use an institution known as the Holy Roman Empire to do so. The first beast, the Roman Empire, will continue just as the bible said it would.

Peace 

Gene wrote: "So, the Roman empire beast did the exact same thing as the little horn would do as it developed.
5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.
The Roman Empire beast was given a mouth and the authority to act for 42 months. The beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God.
The opening of the mouth is conducted by another beast. The first beast and the mouth are two different entities, this is shown by the act of the beast being given the mouth."


Brother Gene, you say the opening of the month is conducted by another beast, and the beast and the mouth are two different entities... Though it's true they are two entities, but they are related.....  the Bible says the the head is on the first beast, the mouth is on the first beast, on the head. But let's say you don't believe the mouth is on the head that was wounded on the first beast of Rev.13, it's still on the first beast.

 Rev.13:5,6 says the first beast was given a mouth to speak, and it opened its mouth to blaspheme against GOD....Brother Gene, this is clearly talking about the first beast of Rev.13...

Gene wrote: "The opening of the mouth is conducted by another beast."

 My brother, you keep trying to go to the other beast, but we're not there yet, I'm glad to talk about it, but we're not there.... But it is clear, the opening of the mouth is conducted by the first beast of Rev.13! Can we agree? 

I would say the head is highlighted for a reason, the mouth is on the head, and the head is on the beast, they are united.... Even though they are two entities, they have different characteristics, one is Church and other is state. 

 Does that sound familiar to you, like the fourth beast of Dan.7?

The mouth is on the little horn,  and the little horn is on the beast, and they are united... and both beast of Dan.7 & Rev.13(first beast) make war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years. This is not coincidence.

 Again, you already believe the fourth beast of Dan.7 and the first beast of Rev.13 represents Rome, the mouth speaking against the Most High and make war with the saints of GOD for 1260 days/42 months = 1260 years is the papacy... You understand that for the fourth beast of Dan.7, but you can't see that for the first beast of Rev.13. We can present the facts, but only the Holy Spirit can guide to Truth.

Since you believe the little horn of Dan.7 (fourth beast) represents the papacy, and it will unite with the state to make war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years, when do you believe the 1260 year began and ended? 

 

Bless! 

 

Hi Reasoning, you said:

We can present the facts, but only the Holy Spirit can guide to Truth.

But what are your facts? I think we agree that the beast, the little horn are two different characters.  The bible focus is on the beast.  We are told of the work the little horn would do, but this focus is the beast as can be seen through the bible.

  1. Daniel wanted to know the truth about the beast he saw.
  2. The little horn comes up out of the beast
  3. The apostle John sees a beast
  4. The beast receives a deadly wound
  5. The beast deadly wound healed
  6. The beast was given the mouth
  7. The beast was given authority to continue 42 months
  8. The second beast exercised the same authority as the beast
  9. The woman sits on a scarlet beast
  10. The beast will rise from the bottomless pit
  11. The beast and ten kings will make was against the Lamb

These are some of the facts.

In a ministry magazine article, it reads,

…We have for years, and rightly, taught that the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8, 24, 25, represented the papal su­premacy for 1260 years, beginning 538 and end­ing 1798 A. D. …

This we agree, the little horn of Daniel 7:8, 24, 25, represented the papal su­premacy, but how did the little horn come to be the beast to receive a deadly wound?  The bible doesn’t focus on papal supremacy, it says the beast will continue for 42 months after the deadly wound healed. God sets the time of the 42 months to begin after the deadly wound heals, the church set the time before the deadly wound. This begs to question the factual truth of what is being said by what is being taught; if you seriously think about it.

So, if the beast is not the little horn, and the little horn is not the beast, then the continuation given to the beast is the same amount of time the little horn was said to have to war against the saints.  In another article the ministry magazine says this about the beast.

…The waters, the beast, and the mountains (of Rev. 17) are different symbols for the civic, secular, and political powers (cf. v. 15) that will provide popular support to Babylon as the end-time apostate religious system.

I do agree with this definition. So, using this definition to define the beast, and considering a previous quote from another article which says,

“This is a true declaration, for every genuine interpretation of prophecy will find its fulfill­ment in authentic history.”

This I also agree with. So, taking a look at the history Europe, what civic, secular, and political powers or what vehicle did the papacy (little horn) used to make war against the saints? The Roman and Holy Roman Empires and Napoleon to some degree; even Hitler tried to resurrect this beast with his third Reich, but the beast faded from the world scene after 42 months ended.  The papacy did not fade from the world scene only the vehicle it used; the beast.

So, the basic question to be answered is, when the beast received the authority to continue for 42 months?

Peace

Gene wrote: "But what are your facts? I think we agree that the beast, the little horn are two different characters. The bible focus is on the beast. We are told of the work the little horn would do, but this focus is the beast as can be seen through the bible."


 The facts are and we agree the fourth beast is Rome, and the little horn is the papacy... We agree they (Rome and papacy) are different entities, however they are related. In Dan.7, the fourth beast is mentioned , and yes there is focus on the beast, but the main focus is the little horn on the beast without a doubt. Let me show you.
  

Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;



24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


 Our focus is mainly on the entity (little horn) that speaks words against the Most High, which we already agree is the papacy. 


Gene wrote: "This we agree, the little horn of Daniel 7:8, 24, 25, represented the papal su­premacy, but how did the little horn come to be the beast to receive a deadly wound?"


 Brother Gene, the little horn on the fourth beast of Dan.7 is on the beast, so they are connected or related. The head on the first beast in Rev.13 is on the beast, they are connected or related. 


Rev.13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Ok, here's my answer, if the little horn on the fourth beast of Dan.7 is on the beast, then it is part of or one with the beast, do you agree?

 If you do, then bring your focus to Rev.13, John saw the beast, but focused on "one of his heads"... Just one of his heads was wounded, and the beast just had one mouth, I think it's safe to say the mouth is on the head John singled out.

Now brother Gene, you already agree the fourth beast of Dan. 7 and the first beast of Rev.13 is speaking about the time and of the Roman Empire.  You believe the little horn in Dan.7 is the papacy, but for some reason you can't connect the little horn and the head singled out by John as being the same entity... Why, I don't know, but let me tell & show you why I believe it... Because the description for the little horn on the beast of Dan.7 is exactly like the description of head on the first beast of Rev.13.


Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Rev.13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Brother Gene, Daniel and John saw the same entity, Daniel looking forward saw the little horn on the beast , and John looking back saw the head on the beast. I'm not saying Daniel saw everything that John saw, but when it comes to the fourth beast on Dan.7 & the first beast of Rev.13, they saw the empire of Rome (state) and the papacy (church, the little horn, the head ). They also was given the same time, 1260 days/42 months which equals 1260 years. 

 Your point of view, which I say with all due respect, it makes no sense... Again, You believe the fourth beast of Dan.7 and first beast of Rev.13 represents Rome and that time, and you recognize the papacy in Dan.7, but for some reason you believe the papacy isn't talked about in John's vision of the first beast in Rev.13. Even though the papacy (the same as described in Dan.7) is described to a tee. Very interesting! 

Bless! 

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