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What is the mark of the beast?

What is the Seal of God?

Revelation 13:1-8, Revelation 14:9-18

Is the mark of the beast a number tattooed on your arm, hand or forehead? Is it a chip inserted under the skin that can be scanned by technology? 

 

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Hello Reasoning,

The concocting of terms like pagan Rome or Papal Rome does not hide the fact nor the truth of the fact from the bible that the Papacy is not the beast which received the deadly wound.  Only by making this leap can such a view be supported. Uriah Smith’s strange interpretation lend itself to distorting the context of these passages by transforming the beast into some other made up figure.

The fourth beast of Daniel which is the first beast of Revelation is explained in Daniel.

23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth…

This kingdom is Rome labeling it pagan or papal distort that truth. A question was asked:

“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

It is this beast which received the deadly wound; this is the Roman empire.

…The beast (the first beast) was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42.

The first beast was given authority to continue, it now has a mouth. The second beast had two horns like a lamb it speaks, like a dragon, and this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast.

The little horn is not a head, it’s a horn but it will be one that is present upon all seven heads.

Peace

Gene wrote: "The concocting of terms like pagan Rome or Papal Rome does not hide the fact nor the truth of the fact from the bible that the Papacy is not the beast which received the deadly wound."

 I'm not concocting anything, you already believe the beast of Dan.7 with the little horn is pagan Rome and papal Rome or the papacy respectively. Yes or no? If yes, then pointing out the difference is ok, why? Because there's a difference when the little horn comes on the set, it's reglious, a false Christianity with pagan roots, it's untied with the state. 


Brother Gene, im sorry, I'm not going by what you say and teach, or for that matter what the SDA Church teaches, it just so happens the SDA has the knowledge on this subject. I believe the Bible is clear on explaining itself, let's stay focus here...

I asked, Can we agree It's the same description of the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13? In other words can we agree they are the same entity, which is the papacy?


 


Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Brother Gene, we are in agreement, the little horn is the papacy... This little horn/ papacy has eyes and a mouth and speak great things against the Most High... Shall wear out the saints of GOD, and given into the hand of the little horn for 1260 years. 

 Brother Gene, ironically there is another entity in Rev.13 that fits the same description, 

Rev.13: 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Ok Gene, let's focus on this head that was wounded and eventually healed up. 


4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Gene, you agree the fourth beast and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome. 

Gene wrote: "We do agree that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 is “Pagan Rome” or the Roman Empire."

 Again, you already agreed the fourth beast is pagan Rome and you agree the little horn on the fourth beast of Dan.7 is the papacy, so you can't deny the papacy is untied with the state to make this war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years.

 and again, you believe the first beast spoken of In Rev.13 is pagan Rome as well, now, this is where and how we connect the dots, the head spoken of does the same things as the little horn in Dan.7....  and for the same amount of time...  So the Bible is clearly showing us the little horn with eyes and a mouth in Dan.7 and the head in Rev.13 is the same. 

Do you think pagan Rome and the papacy/papal Rome will be spoken of in Dan.7 and in Rev.13 it just speaks about pagan Rome and mysteriously leave out the papacy? 

No, it doesn't, the head in Rev.13 does the same thing as the little horn of Dan.7, so that means the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13 is the papacy, part of and untied with the beast (pagan Rome). 

 “The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptized. ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope.” ..


"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor’s disappearance. ... The Roman church ... pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation.”


I got these quotes from amazing facts, but they didn't site the source. Is it true or not is the question? 

 

 Gene wrote: "This kingdom is Rome labeling it pagan or papal distort that truth. A question was asked:
“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”
It is this beast which received the deadly wound; this is the Roman empire."

I don't agree, I'm not distorting the truth, your the one trying to ignore the papacy's role, and the description given for the papacy in Rev.13, it's just like in Dan.7 with the little horn, which you acknowledge is papacy, but for some reason you can't acknowledge the obvious, that the head spoken of in Rev.13 is the papacy. Let's look at the description again 


Rev.13 : 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Gene, it's the same as the little horn in Dan.7..... The 42 months is 1260 days, which is 1260 years. Also, you didn't answer my question, you said we agree about the papacy and its relation to 1260 year prophecy, I asked you what do we exactly agree on in regards to the papacy and the 1260 year prophecy? 

Blessings! 

Reasoning said,

"I asked, Can we agree It's the same description of the little horn of Dan.7 and the head of Rev.13? In other words can we agree they are the same entity, which is the papacy?"

I assume you’re speaking of the head which received the deadly wound; then no, they are not the same.

Staying focus as you suggest, the seven heads are those of the first beast of Revelation 13, the fourth beast of Daniel.  There are two beasts in Revelation 13. Daniel says,

The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Historically, this has been the Roman Empire. So, the Roman Empire is this beast with seven heads as the bible defines these heads as mountains or kingdom.

Which head received the deadly wound? Obviously this first head, the Roman Empire head.

When this deadly wound had healed, three of the ten horns had been removed leaving the beast with seven heads and seven horns. The little horn is a different horn than the seven, Daniel explains this.

20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

The little horn as other bible describes it:

  • the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others,
  • the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.
  • It was more terrifying than any of the others.

The horn was not on the first head when it received the deadly wound, the horn was established when the wound healed.

10And there are seven kings… 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Here we see there is an eighth king or horn because we are told that horns are kings.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings.

Seven kings, one king for each head of the beast, but there is an eight king that is part of the whole. It will be an imposing figure on each head; erected on the first head after the deadly wound healed.

Peace

Gene wrote: "I assume you’re speaking of the head which received the deadly wound; then no, they are not same."

Gene wrote: "We do agree that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 is “Pagan Rome” or the Roman Empire."

 Ok, let's take it slower... Can we agree the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome or Roman Empire?  and if so, what are the similarities in your view? 

 Can we also agree the fourth beast of Dan. 7 is united with the papacy/ Catholic Church, and with that unification went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years? 

 

Now, if you agree the fourth beast of Dan.7 and the first beast spoken of in Rev.13 is pagan Rome (which I agree with)....  and you agree the little horn is the papacy, which the Bible said will make war with the saints of GOD, then you believe the Catholic Church is united with the Roman Empire to make this war.  Do you believe that? 

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptized. ... The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope.” ..

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Arians left ... [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the emperor’s disappearance. ... The Roman church ... pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation.”

I got these quotes from amazing facts, but they didn't site the source. Is it true or not is the question?

Also, you didn't answer my question, you said we agree about the papacy and its relation to 1260 year prophecy, I asked you what do we exactly agree on in regards to the papacy and the 1260 year prophecy? 

 You acknowledge the papacy's role as the little horn on the fourth beast in Dan.7, but when we come to Rev.13, which you agree is talking about the same thing, the Roman Empire, but you are failing to acknowledge the papacy's role. I'm just pointing out to you that the Bible gives the same description of the papacy in Dan.7 & Rev.13, with the same time period of 1260 years as well. 

Rev.13:13 : 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [1260 years]


6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Look at the similarities brother Gene, 

Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [1260 years]

 So, I'm not denying the Roman Empire is spoken of in Rev.13, but I'm not overlooking the description of the papacy like yourself. This is our main difference and disagreement.. But hey, believe what you will. 

Bless! 

Hello Reasoning,

I understand the distinction you are attempting to make between “pagan” Rome, the Roman Empire and “Papal” Rome which was extension of it. The Roman empire had a vast culture, it absorbed other cultures as it conquered them. It also had a Christian culture before Papal Rome dominance. After Christianity evolved on the world scene all other religions have been considered pagan, even Judaism to some degree.

You asked, “Can we also agree the fourth beast of Dan. 7 is united with the papacy/ Catholic Church…”

So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years.

The question then is when in history did this occur? The Church says it begin in 538 AD and ended with the deadly wound in 1798, but the bible says.

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

The previous verse tells us when.

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed…

Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints.

Again, my question is when? The bible says it was after the deadly wound, the SDA church says it was in 538 AD before the deadly wound.

In 538 AD the Papacy wasn’t established. It did not have civil authority, the church bishop of Rome only had authority in churches and this was a recognition given by the Roman emperor in 531.  The church bishop did not even have the authority to elect the popes of the church, this authority came from the emperor of the Roman empire.

Justinian who was the emperor at this time killed a lot of people, including the saints. Here are a few quotes from the historian Procopius, Byzantine historian whose works are an indispensable source for his period and contain much geographical information. From 527 to 531 he was adviser (consilarius) to the military commander Belisarius on his first Persian campaign. www.britannica.com

This is from his writing Procopius: Secret History: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/proc/shp/shp21.htm

“Agents were sent everywhere to force whomever they chanced upon to renounce the faith of their fathers. This, which seemed impious to rustic people, caused them to rebel against those who gave them such an order. Thus many perished at the hands of the persecuting faction, and others did away with themselves, foolishly thinking this the holier course of two evils; but most of them by far quitted the land of their fathers, and fled the country. The Montanists, who dwelt in Phrygia, shut themselves up in their churches, set them on fire, and ascended to glory in the flames. And thenceforth the whole Roman Empire was a scene of massacre and flight.”

Under this chapter, XVIII. HOW JUSTINIAN KILLED A TRILLION PEOPLE

He starts out by saying,

“THAT Justinian was not a man, but a demon, as I have said, in human form, one might prove by considering the enormity of the evils he brought upon mankind…”

“…Furthermore the persecution of the Samaritans and the so-called heretics filled the Roman realm with blood. Let this present recapitulation suffice to recall what I have described more fully a little while since. Such were the things done to all mankind by the demon in flesh for which Justinian, as Emperor, was responsible. But what evils he wrought against men by some hidden power and diabolic force I shall now relate…”

“…During his rule over the Romans, many disasters of various kinds occurred: which some said were due to the presence and artifices of the Devil, and others considered were effected by the Divinity, Who, disgusted with the Roman Empire, had turned away from it and given the country up to the Old One. The Scirtus River flooded Edessa, creating countless sufferings among the inhabitants, as I have elsewhere written. The Nile, rising as usual, but not subsiding…”

So, my quest is when did this continuation begin? Was in 538 before the deadly wound or sometime later? When was the church given civil authority and join with the state to make war with the saints? It was during the 42 months, after the deadly wound healed.

Reason said,

I'm not overlooking the description of the papacy like yourself.

I’m not overlooking the Papacy, if the first beast is the Roman empire which we agree.  The other beast must be the Papacy beast.

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

It has a mouth and it speaks and exercised all the authority of the first beast. It unites with the first beast and exercise the authority.

Peace


Gene wrote: "I’m not overlooking the Papacy, if the first beast is the Roman empire which we agree. The other beast must be the Papacy beast."


brother Gene, you don't even see yourself overlooking the papacy in regards to the first Beast spoken of in Rev.13, or maybe you do? 

 I'm not getting into verse 11 right now, which speaks of another beast. You continuing to jump to that shows in my view that your trying to gloss over the identifying characteristics of the head on the first beast spoken of in Rev.13. The head is on the first beast spoken of in Rev.13. Why are you going to the other beast? Can we stay focused on the fourth beast of Dan.7 & first beast in Rev.13 please? Thanks 

 The time is late, so I'll respond to your post and answer your questions tomorrow. Thank you! Blessings! :) 

The Roman empire beast crucified Jesus, it persecuted the Christian church until the Edict of Milan. Going forward to the days of emperor Justinian, this is what we find.

Moreover, while he was encouraging civil strife and frontier warfare to confound the Romans, with only one thought in his mind, that the earth should run red with human blood and he might acquire more and more booty, he invented a new means of murdering his subjects.

Now among the Christians in the entire Roman Empire, there are many with dissenting trines, which are called heresies by the established church: such as those of the Montanists and Sabbatians, and whatever others cause the minds of men to wander from the true path.

All of these beliefs he (Emperor Justinian) ordered to be abolished, and their place taken by the orthodox dogma: threatening, among the punishments for disobedience, loss of the heretic's right to will property to his children or other relatives.

Now the churches of these so-called heretics, especially those belonging to the Arian dissenters, were almost incredibly wealthy. Neithr all the Senate put together nor the greatest unit of the Roman Empire, had anything in property comparable to that of these churches. For their gold and silver treasures, and stores of precious stones, were beyond telling or numbering: they owned mansions and whole villages, land all over the world, and everything else that is counted as wealth among men.

 As none of the previous Emperors had molested these churches, many men, even those of the orthodox faith, got their livelihood by working on their estates. But the Emperor Justinian, in confiscating these properties, at, the same time took away what for many people had been their only means of earning a living.

 Agents were sent everywhere to force whomever they chanced upon to renounce the faith of their fathers. This, which seemed impious to rustic people, caused them to rebel against those who gave them such an order. Thus many perished at the hands of the persecuting faction, and others did away with themselves, foolishly thinking this the holier course of two evils; but most of them by far quitted the land of their fathers, and fled the country. The Montanists, who dwelt in Phrygia, shut themselves up in their churches, set them on fire, and ascended to glory in the flames. And thenceforth the whole Roman Empire was a scene of massacre and flight.

So, the Roman empire beast did the exact same thing as the little horn would do as it developed.

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

The Roman Empire beast was given a mouth and the authority to act for 42 months. The beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God.

The opening of the mouth is conducted by another beast. The first beast and the mouth are two different entities, this is shown by the act of the beast being given the mouth.

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

The mouth speaks through the second beast. It exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

The first beast will continue for 42 months as stated in verse 6, and through the second beast who exercised all the authority of the first beast, the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

The second beast does the first beast bidding, it wages war against the saints just like the first beast had done; this will be done for 42 months or 1260 days.

The little horn is another beast, it will persecute the saints just as the first beast. It will use an institution known as the Holy Roman Empire to do so. The first beast, the Roman Empire, will continue just as the bible said it would.

Seems to me that some have trouble in understanding the link between Daniel 7 and Rev. 13 Both starts with the sea and something coming out of it.

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The beast from Daniel is a Lion a Bear a Leopard and a nondescript Beast with Iron teeth And 10 horns where a little horn appears and 3 of the horns was plucked up before it. 

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Here in Rev. we see the composition of the beast is made up of parts of the beasts in Daniel but the order is now reversed here starting with the leopard after the bear and finishing with the Lion. Why is the order reversed because we now have John the revelator having the vision on the Island of Patmos. The time is about AD 90 so we can understand John is looking back at a time sequence. While Daniel was looking forward unto the same sequence. So where is the little Horn? Yes, it has disappeared but we have instead a head that is wounded among the seven heads, they also have a total of ten horns. 

One would think if one had a small amount of imagination one can see the change of gears the Prophecy makes here. It is still speaking about the progression from Babylon to the Papacy But the same players have changed form as it does at times in Prophetic Writings. 

 

Elijah said,

"So where is the little Horn? Yes, it has disappeared but we have instead a head that is wounded among the seven heads, they also have a total of ten horns."

Which head was wounded, and was it wounded be the 1260 years?

Prophets are sometimes contemporary of one another; sometime God shows another prophet an expanded vision of the same prophecy.

Here John sees the same vision of the beast as Daniel, but he sees it more fully. John sees the seven heads, Daniel did not see this. The ten horn are the same ten horn before the head was wounded.  Daniel saw three horns removed, John saw the head the three horns were upon wounded the death.  Daniel sees the little horn coming up, John sees this little horn as it has developed.

Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

The little horn has developed into another beast; different than the first beast but a beast none the less. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast….

We see this reality in history.  As the Roman empire waned in its role on the world scene, the Holy Roman empire emerged to fill the vacancy of that power. The little horn now exercised all the authority of the first beast, but not by itself.  As long as there was an Emperor of Rome, the Roman empire would continue just as the bible said;

And a mouth was given to it, speaking great things and blasphemy, and it was given authority to act forty and two months.

 

  • The Holy Roman Emperor (German: Römisch-Deutscher Kaiser, or "Roman-German Kaiser") is a term used by historians to denote a medieval ruler, who as German King had in addition received the title of "Emperor of the Romans" from the Pope and after the 16th century, the elected monarch governing the Holy Roman Empire (later called Holy Roman Empire of the German nation), a Central European union of territories in existence during the Medieval and Early Modern period.
  • For more than a thousand years, following its foundation on Christmas Day 800, the Holy Roman Empire embodied the ideal that Europe was a single pacific Christian order upheld by the emperor as pre-eminent monarch and guardian of the papacy.
  • The Emperor was crowned in a special ceremony, traditionally performed by the Pope in Rome, using the Imperial Regalia. Without that coronation, no king, despite exercising all powers, could call himself Emperor.

Gene said:

"Which head was wounded, and was it wounded be the 1260 years?"

You seem to have great trouble to connect the dots there Gene I do not think I can make it any more clear than that. 

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