Gene wrote: "No Reasoning, this is not based on my opinion. If you are reading the bible this should be clear to you."
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.
The bible teaches:
One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound.
The fatal wound had been healed.
Simple enough? Verse five reveals the beast acquired after the events of verse three.
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies.
and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.
I’m not assuming these are in chronologically order, the bible places them as such and to assume otherwise is to alter and speak contrary to the bible. So, in keeping with the context of what is shown I do accept the order God shows us."
Like I said my brother, your whole argument is base and hangs on chronology... Everything we read in Revelation is not in chronological order.. In Rev.13, when it speaks about the first beast and then mentions "another" beast, then that would be in sequence, one beast following the other beast (world power).
However, in speaking about the first beast in Rev.13 there is overlapping of what Daniel saw with the fourth beast.... meaning they (Daniel & John) saw the same things, certain identifying characteristics.. You see the same characteristics in regards to the beast being the Roman Empire, but you don't see the same characteristics with Dan.7 (little horn) in regards to the head with the mouth highlighted by John in Rev.13 and that being the papacy. How you can't connect those dots is a mystery to me.
Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
We can assume this is in chronological order, and I understand with your view it's a must, but that's you and your opinion. But that's all you have, it's what your whole argument seems to hang on.
Now, for me, I want to make sure, take and read the Bible in totality, let it explain itself, you know this the rule for any Biblical student. When I do that, Rev.13 lines up with what Daniel saw in chapter 7. Let me show you again, the identifying characteristics is undeniable... and you seem to agree with most of what the SDA Church teaches.
1) the fourth beast (world power) of Dan.7 and first beast of Rev.13 - the same
we actually agree on this. :)
Gene wrote: "We do agree that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 is “Pagan Rome” or the Roman Empire."
2) The little horn with a mouth in Dan.7 & the head with a mouth in Rev.13- the same, the papacy
I believe you agree that the little horn in Dan.7 and the mouth in Rev.13 on the first beast is the papacy, but for some reason the head that was highlighted by John, which the mouth had to be on, your having a hard time acknowledging the head is the papacy as well. Similar to how the little horn is the papacy and the mouth on the little horn is the papacy as well.
3) the mouth on the little horn & the head speaking great things and blasphemies in Dan.7 & Rev.13- the same
We agree on this as well... That's a beautiful thing. :)
Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy,..."
4) little horn with the mouth made war the saints, the head with the mouth makes war with the saints- the same
Dan.7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Rev.13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
5) The time frame of 1260 days and 42 months = 1260 years - the same
You seem to agree on point 4 & 5 too...
Gene wrote: "So yes, the fourth beast of Dan. 7 (the first beast of Revelation 13) at some point in history united with the papacy and went on to war with the saints of GOD for 1260 years."
This is what the SDA church teaches and you seem to agree on most of we teach. From the looks of it, you really don't have a beef with what the SDA Church teach in regards to this subject.
But if you do, What I provided from the Bible far outweighs your chronological argument, maybe not for you, but hey, I can't help that...
I find it amazing you constantly say what the SDA Church has wrong in regards to this subject (and many others), when you come with views that doesn't hold weight compared to other parts of the Bible, and actually agree with 90-95% of what the SDA teach... and you don't answer questions, there's no reasoning here.. So with that, how can we possibly move forward to coming to an agreement my brother?
Peace & Blessings!
Gene wrote: "For me it’s not a matter of believing what SDA teaches, but what the bible teaches. As it relates to this topic we’re discussing one of the major differences is the question of when does the 42 months commenced?
SDA suggest it starts in 538 A.D. leading to the deadly wound; the bible teaches differently. If the bible teaches differently then this view is incorrect. So, what does the bible say concerning this? Once again, I will lay this out from the bible text."
Right, the SDA teach the 1260 days and 42 months are talking about the same time frame, which is 1260 years...
I know you believe the 1260 years in Daniel time began in 554 and ended in 1814.... Is that the same for the 42 months (1260 years), or do you believe the 42 months spans a different time frame? If so, when do you believe the 42 months (1260 years) began and ended?
Gene wrote: "So, the question may arise, are these verses in chronically order? We have no reason believe they are not. "
You would believe that because without that belief your argument falls apart. That's why I said your main argument and response is base on chronology. But we have to look at the Bible in totality and let it explain itself.
This can be seen as symbolic of the papacy turning away from the declining Byzantium towards the new power of Carolingian Francia.”
Seeing that the subject of Daniel as well as Revelation 13, 17 is the beast and not the little horn; the beast was given a mouth which was that of the little horn, and was given authority to continue for 42 months.
Why have some conferred the continuation upon the little horn? The bible dose points out it will make war against the saints for 42 months, but this is in its relationship with the beast.
Historically, the mouth was given to the beast at the conclusion of the Gothic wars and the implementing of the Pragmatic Sanction in 554 which gave the bishop of Rome right to exercise authority outside of the church. The papacy during this time was still under the emperor of Rome, popes were selected by Roman emperor, this was known as the Byzantine Papacy period.
“Pope Martin I insisted on being consecrated immediately without waiting for imperial approval, and was (after a delay due to the revolt of Olympius, the exarch of Ravenna) abducted by imperial troops to Constantinople, found guilty of treason, and exiled to Crimea where he died in 655…”
“…Pope Zachary, in 741, was the last pope to announce his election to a Byzantine ruler or seek their approval. Within 50 years (Christmas 800), the papacy recognized Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor. This can be seen as symbolic of the papacy turning away from the declining Byzantium towards the new power of Carolingian Francia.”
The apostle John said;
Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast…
Here is that other beast, it has two horns like a lamb; it is church and state. Under that first beast, the state controlled the church by electing its popes. Now the church will select the emperors to rule over the state.
“When Charlemagne was crowned in 800, his was styled as "most serene Augustus, crowned by God, great and pacific emperor, governing the Roman Empire," thus constituting the elements of "Holy" and "Roman" in the imperial title….
The title of Emperor (Imperator) carried with it an important role as protector of the Catholic Church. As the papacy's power grew during the Middle Ages, Popes and emperors came into conflict over church administration. The most well-known and bitter conflict was that known as the Investiture Controversy fought during the 11th century between Henry IV and Pope Gregory VII….”
To be sure, Charles was an empire-builder. He had become master of the French kingdom in 768 and used his military might to forcibly bring the German tribes under his authority, forcing them to accept baptism and become Christians. His cruelty has been blamed for the Viking invasions which troubled Europe for over a century. His dominion stretched from the Baltic Sea to the British Channel to Rome itself. Charles worked diligently to provide a good, unified organization for his vast empire.
When King Charles returned to France after being crowned emperor, he forced his subjects to take an oath to him as Caesar. He re-established the Roman Empire on a Teutonic base. https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/601-900...
The bible is clear and true to the point; the Roman empire beast was given authority to continue, and it did.
Seems to me that some have trouble in understanding the link between Daniel 7 and Rev. 13 Both starts with the sea and something coming out of it.
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
The beast from Daniel is a Lion a Bear a Leopard and a nondescript Beast with Iron teeth And 10 horns where a little horn appears and 3 of the horns was plucked up before it.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Here in Rev. we see the composition of the beast is made up of parts of the beasts in Daniel but the order is now reversed here starting with the leopard after the bear and finishing with the Lion. Why is the order reversed because we now have John the revelator having the vision on the Island of Patmos. The time is about AD 90 so we can understand John is looking back at a time sequence. While Daniel was looking forward unto the same sequence. So where is the little Horn? Yes, it has disappeared but we have instead a head that is wounded among the seven heads, they also have a total of ten horns.
One would think if one had a small amount of imagination one can see the change of gears the Prophecy makes here. It is still speaking about the progression from Babylon to the Papacy But the same players have changed form as it does at times in Prophetic Writings.
"So where is the little Horn? Yes, it has disappeared but we have instead a head that is wounded among the seven heads, they also have a total of ten horns."
Which head was wounded, and was it wounded be the 1260 years?
Prophets are sometimes contemporary of one another; sometime God shows another prophet an expanded vision of the same prophecy.
Here John sees the same vision of the beast as Daniel, but he sees it more fully. John sees the seven heads, Daniel did not see this. The ten horn are the same ten horn before the head was wounded. Daniel saw three horns removed, John saw the head the three horns were upon wounded the death. Daniel sees the little horn coming up, John sees this little horn as it has developed.
Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.
The little horn has developed into another beast; different than the first beast but a beast none the less. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast….
We see this reality in history. As the Roman empire waned in its role on the world scene, the Holy Roman empire emerged to fill the vacancy of that power. The little horn now exercised all the authority of the first beast, but not by itself. As long as there was an Emperor of Rome, the Roman empire would continue just as the bible said;
And a mouth was given to it, speaking great things and blasphemy, and it was given authority to act forty and two months.
"Which head was wounded, and was it wounded be the 1260 years?"
You seem to have great trouble to connect the dots there Gene I do not think I can make it any more clear than that.
Good evening Gene,
A very vital question. For according to the Biblical, one of the beast's heads were injured whilst that band of people were following the beasts and its heads. Another fundamental to question to ask is how long has the Roman Catholic church being in existence
Uses of Sealed in the Epistles written by Paul:
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yetbeing uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
The subject is the Mark of the Beast and THE SEAL OF GOD (emphasis added to get your attention) and what are they?
Above I have posted every usage of sealed used in the Epistles written by inspiration and revelation of God to Paul. Yet no one has commented or taken it to heart it seems?
If God says we are sealed, then we are sealed.
Yes sorry for not commenting I did overlook your wise words and that was wrong of me. Again thank you for your incredible insight, I never looked at it that way but clearly, you are sealed if you do the will of God. including keeping His commandments like the Sabbath and Lying. Bragging is not helpful either.
I'll try to address your questions. I don’t think the bible gives us that information that the beast's heads were injured whilst that band of people were following the beasts and its heads. It only says,
But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
This astonishment to me indicate that maybe people were watching events and the outcome led them to acknowledge this beast.
4They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”
There is another event of astonishment relate to the beast found in Revelation 17
And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.
This beast system is rooted in history, but people will be astonished when it come to power.
As to the question of when the Catholic church begin, I don’t think that’s the question that is being asked. That question is when did the papacy come into power. The church says 538 AD. The pope had influence during and before this time, emperor Justinian acknowledged the pope’s authority in all the churches in 533. The papacy was under the authority of a Roman republic, the pope’s authority was limited to what was given by the emperor.