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What is the mark of the beast?

What is the Seal of God?

Revelation 13:1-8, Revelation 14:9-18

Is the mark of the beast a number tattooed on your arm, hand or forehead? Is it a chip inserted under the skin that can be scanned by technology? 

 

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You asked when do I believe the 1260 year began and ended? I must say I again agree with ministry magazine in saying “This is a true declaration, for every genuine interpretation of prophecy will find its fulfill­ment in authentic history. “

Historically speaking, as I have come to understand. The year 476 is generally accepted as the formal end of the Western Roman Empire. This event has traditionally been considered the fall of the Western Roman Empire.  The bible calls it the deadly wound.  “The emperor Justinian I reconquered Italy and parts of Illyria from the Ostrogoths, North Africa from the Vandals, and southern Hispania from the Visigoths” during the Gothic wars.  The bible said three horn would be removed from the head of the beast for the little horn happened just as Daniel saw.

8While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it.

This all occurred during the deadly wound, but he bible said the deadly wound healed.  The healing took place by Justinian conquest and the restoring of Rome to the empire.  Justinian “considered himself to be the most faithful of servants to the God who aided him. If he made war, it was not simply in order to collect the lost provinces into the Roman Empire, but also to protect the Catholics from their enemies the Arian heretics, "persecutors of souls and bodies." … Furthermore, one of the chief aims of his diplomacy was to lead the heathen peoples into the Christian fold.”

The Gothic wars ended in 554, the Catholic church is now established as the church of the Roman empire.

the mortal wound was healed. The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

The beast (not the little horn) was given authority to act for 42 months because it was victorious.  With the Catholics established, the mouth was given.

So, we see two things occurring;

  1. The end of the Gothic wars
  2. The implementing of the Pragmatic Sanction of 544

By the Pragmatic Sanction, the Bishops were empowered to participate in the choice of provincial governors; the bishop and Senate of Rome were made responsible for the employment of correct weights and measures. Weights and measures in society is related to buying and selling.

So, as you see. Unlike 538, 544 is a date which has historical meaning as it relates to the beast.

1260 years from 544 brings us the 1814.  Do you know happen in Europe in 1814?  The beast power came to an end.

Peace

Gene wrote: "1260 years from 544 [554] brings us the 1814. Do you know happen in Europe in 1814? The beast power came to an end."

 So your view and SDA teaching is 16 years off from each other? That's part of your beef with SDA teaching, a 16 year difference? What event(s) in 1814 signified the end of the 1260 year time prophecy in your view? 

Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."


Huh? So you believe the mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words is the papacy?

Rev.13: 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

If you agree, why are you saying the SDA teaching is wrong?

It clearly says the mouth (papacy) speaking blasphemies against GOD is on the first beast of Rev.13 and it will continue for 42 months, or 1260 years.


Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy, but it was the first beast (the fourth beast of Daniel) that was given the authority for 42 months. But as you’ve noted, the mouth; the little horn, the Papacy unified with the first beast to make war against the saints."


I don't know why we are going back and forth here... We agree! 

Now, where do you believe that mouth is?

I mean John did highlight and focused on "one" of the heads of the first beast of Rev.13, and then mentions  "a" mouth. If you believe the mouth is the papacy, then you have to believe the head singled out by John is the papacy as well, because the mouth in on the head. Just like the little horn in Dan.7, the mouth (papacy)was on the little horn(papacy).

 

Bless! 

Reasoning said, if you agree, why are you saying the SDA teaching is wrong?

For me it’s not a matter of believing what SDA teaches, but what the bible teaches. As it relates to this topic we’re discussing one of the major differences is the question of when does the 42 months commenced?

SDA suggest it starts in 538 A.D. leading to the deadly wound; the bible teaches differently. If the bible teaches differently then this view is incorrect. So, what does the bible say concerning this? Once again, I will lay this out from the bible text.

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

So, the question may arise, are these verses in chronically order? We have no reason believe they are not.  The apostle John shares with us what Jesus Christ show him. The SDA rejects this view and alter the text to say something else.

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

It’s not just a sixteen years difference I’m speaking about, it’s a complete changing of the scriptures in order to promote doctrinal error.

We can agree with whom the little horn is, but the bible focus in on the beast.  The little horn works within the time that has been allotted to the beast. Agreeing with ministry magazine definition of the beast as symbols for the civic, secular, and political powers that provides popular support to Babylon as the end-time apostate religious system.

It also provided support to that historic apostate religious system, and this is why Revelation 17 speaks about the beast in this way saying,

8The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

My point again is I can’t see how the SDA message on this can be truth when it has altered the sequence of order to prove its point. The deadly wound and it healing comes before the 42 months of continuation.

As I said before you seem to have great difficulty to join the dots, Gene. Daniel leaves the Little Horn Speaking in Daniel 7, that is where John picks it up in Rev. 13. That would be inside the 42 months (1260 years) 

Elijah I’m understanding your point. The little horn and its role are mentioned, but the focus in Daniel and Revelation is not the little horn, but the beast. The beast received the deadly wound which healed, the beast is given authority to continue for 42 months. The little horn is not this beast, but during the 42 month it will make war with the saints as the beast continues.

Peace

Gene wrote: "Elijah I’m understanding your point. The little horn and its role are mentioned, but the focus in Daniel and Revelation is not the little horn, but the beast. The beast received the deadly wound which healed, the beast is given authority to continue for 42 months. The little horn is not this beast, but during the 42 month it will make war with the saints as the beast continues."

Brother Gene, I don't know what your talking about, The Bible mainly focuses on the little horn in Dan.7, 


Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 If you believe the focus is not the little horn in Daniel 7, then we might have to bring our discussion to an end, because your not seeing the clear evidence of this Bible subject. But hey, I'm sure you'll say the same about me. 

Peace! 

The focus of Daniel in chapter 7 is on the four beasts which he saw. This is explained to Daniel.

So he told me the interpretation of these things: 17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. Daniel is intrigued and says,
19Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others—extremely terrifying—


So yes, Daniel focus is on this beast that is different from all the others. ARE YOU READING THE BIBLE???


The beast is the focus because it is different, it has horns and in addition it has this little horn coming up out of it which uproots three of the main horns. Daniel give us more detail about the little horn in that it makes war with the saints, but he also explains about this forth beast.


23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it.
24And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings. 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
Speaking about the beast, he says


26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.


The dominion is that of the beast.
Because the fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth…


The little horn is not the main focus; he will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.


It is not fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth to devour the whole earth, that’s the beast.

Peace

I believe we're getting into semantics here... Yes, there is focus on the beast, but Daniel focus was concentrated on the little horn on the beast.

 If you had a little horn on your head with a mouth Gene, I will say it's still you. 

Bless!

Peace

 Gene wrote: "For me it’s not a matter of believing what SDA teaches, but what the bible teaches. As it relates to this topic we’re discussing one of the major differences is the question of when does the 42 months commenced?"

 Yes, of course, we all depend on what the Bible teaches, you believe differently, but SDA believe and show why we believe what we do. Your views are based from Herbert Armstrong's Point of view, which you believe is based on what the Bible teaches. We just have to reason together more and ask the Holy Spirit guide us to the truth.

 Yes, you are correct, when the 42 months commenced is one of our differences. 

Gene wrote: "SDA suggest it starts in 538 A.D. leading to the deadly wound; the bible teaches differently. If the bible teaches differently then this view is incorrect. "

Gene wrote: "It’s not just a sixteen years difference I’m speaking about, it’s a complete changing of the scriptures in order to promote doctrinal error."

 

  I didn't say it's just the 16 years difference, however this is one of your issues with SDA teaching. Instead of 538-1798, you believe 554-1814. We can talk about this. There has been no changing of anything by SDA teaching. 

Gene wrote: "So, the question may arise, are these verses in chronically order? We have no reason believe they are not. The apostle John shares with us what Jesus Christ show him. The SDA rejects this view and alter the text to say something else."

 No, I disagree, there was nothing altered by the SDA Church in regards to Rev.13... Your view and problem is based on chronology of Rev.13, but after identifying the head on the beast then I don't believe chronological is the issue. 

Gene wrote: "We can agree with whom the little horn is, but the bible focus in on the beast. The little horn works within the time that has been allotted to the beast. "

 The main focus is on the little horn, I already showed you that, but they are related...  we agree that the fourth beast of Dan.7 is the Roman Empire and after the three horns are plucked up, the Bible acknowledges the little horn as coming up, we agree it's the papacy. You believe the 1260 begins from 554 to 1814, we disagree on this time frame, The SDA Church teaches it's from 538 to 1798.. Again, a difference of 16 years. 

What I'm trying to show you is that we agree that the fourth beast of Dan.7 and the first beast of Rev.13 is the Roman Empire. Daniel is looking forward and John is looking back at same beast. The same Roman Empire. The same time frame 1260 days/42 months = 1260 days. That same time frame is applied to the little horn and the "one" of the heads on each respective beast. You believe in two separate time frames. 

 the description for the little horn on the beast of Dan.7 is exactly like the description of head on the first beast of Rev.13.

Dan.7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan.7: 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan.7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev.13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

  * the fourth beast of Dan.7 and first beast of Rev.13 - the same

 * The little horn with a mouth in Dan.7 & the head with a mouth in Rev.13 - the same

  * the mouth speaking great things and blasphemies in Dan.7 & Rev.13- the same

  * little horn wears out the saints, the head makes war with the saints- the same 

  * The time frame of 1260 days and 42 months = 1260 years - the same  

  Your rebut to these clear similarities is chronologically?  

 You believe because Rev.13:3 speaks about the head and how it was wounded and healed and then speaks about the time frame of 1260 years, then that means the 1260 years/42months is after the wounding and healing. 

 You believe the mouth is on the first beast of Rev.13 is the papacy 

    

    Gene wrote: "Also notice, the “mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words” we agree is the Papacy,..."

 Do you believe the mouth is on the head John talks about in verse 3 in Rev.13? 

Blessings! 

Reasoning.

According to the bible, when was the deadly wounded and when did it healed; was it before the 42 months or after?

Teaching that 528 A.D commenced the 42 months which ended with the deadly wound in 1798 seems to contradict the biblical teaching.

3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

The fact that the beast is given a mouth implies that it did not have it before. All of the takes place after the fatal wound healed; along with the authority to continue.

So, are you able to explain this contradiction, or can you explain why you don’t see it as one?

Peace 

Ok, your answering questions with questions?   I guess you want me to answer yours, no problem.


Gene wrote: "According to the bible, when was the deadly wounded and when did it healed; was it before the 42 months or after?"

 Rev.13 :1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I understand you take this to be chronological, but we just can't assume that to be the case. But is this the crux of your argument, Chronologically?

 What I provided from the Bible far outweighs that, maybe not for you, but hey, I can't help that... I find it amazing you constantly say what the SDA Church has wrong in regards to this subject (and many others), when you come with views that doesn't hold weight compared to other parts of the Bible. 

* the fourth beast of Dan.7 and first beast of Rev.13 - the same
* The little horn with a mouth in Dan.7 & the head with a mouth in Rev.13 - the same
* the mouth speaking great things and blasphemies in Dan.7 & Rev.13- the same
* little horn wears out the saints, the head makes war with the saints- the same
* The time frame of 1260 days and 42 months = 1260 years - the same

Your rebut to these overwhelming & clear similarities is chronologically? Really! You need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself your question, "ARE YOU READING THE BIBLE???". 

 


Gene wrote: "Teaching that 528 A.D commenced the 42 months which ended with the deadly wound in 1798 seems to contradict the biblical teaching."

 

What "seems" to be to a person is not always the case. Let me ask, when do you believe the 42 months began and ended? 


Gene wrote: "The fact that the beast is given a mouth implies that it did not have it before."

I agree, the beast didn't always have that mouth, but the "one" head that John highlighted with the mouth eventually came on the scene. You believe it was 554, and the SDA teaches it was 538. 

Gene wrote: "All of the takes place after the fatal wound healed; along with the authority to continue."

 Again, that is base on your opinion... I'm going on the Bible's identifying characteristics, which we find in Daniel. Daniel didn't see everything John saw, but there was some overlapping of what they saw. 

 Gene wrote: "So, are you able to explain this contradiction, or can you explain why you don’t see it as one?"

  It's seems to contradict base on what you believe, but we can't go on that... I'll stick with the Bible. Now, are you going to answer my questions?

Bless! 

Reasoning said, Again, that is base on your opinion... 

No Reasoning, this is not based on my opinion. If you are reading the bible this should be clear to you.

3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.

The bible teaches:

  1. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound.
  2. The fatal wound had been healed.

Simple enough?  Verse five reveals the beast acquired after the events of verse three.

  1. The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies.
  2. and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

I’m not assuming these are in chronologically order, the bible places them as such and to assume otherwise is to alter and speak contrary to the bible. So, in keeping with the context of what is shown I do accept the order God shows us.

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