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In a recent discussion with a disgruntled Adventist, I was told that many in the church treat Ellen White like the Catholics treat the Virgin Mary...

It made me think... Could it be that some hold the same view?

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Colporteur is obviously a Jesuit... 


The liberals sure despise reproof. The counsel is meant to cut as well as up lift. The problem is that our rebellious brethren want to be petted.

How many of us on this forum really take this counsel to heart?

This making and exchanging of photographs is a species of Idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, 'Thou shall have no other Gods before me.'"8  Ellen White, Messages to Young People, p. 316.

They have not been willing to give up the world, but have united with them, have attended picnics and other gatherings of pleasure, flattering themselves that they were engaging in innocent amusement. Yet I was shown that it is just such indulgences that separate them from God, and make them children of the world." (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 269)

These pages are filled with photographs, yet we ignore the fact that in doing so Ellen White says we are breaking the second commandment.


We acknowledge our error. We deeply regret that we ever consented to sit for our pictures. For years I would not consent to have our pictures taken, although solicited to do so. How many times I have wished we had remained steadfast. But all we can do now is to confess our wrong and ask God to forgive us, and entreat the forgiveness of our brethren and sisters."10. Ellen White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Mar. 26, 1867.

Ellen White later wrote,

Well, Addie [Walling], I would be pleased to have you get your pictures taken and write to May [Walling] to do the same. I will settle the bills. I want to see the faces of my children once more.11. Ellen White, Letter to Addie and May Walling, July 21, 1886; quoted in Manuscript Releases, Vol. 8, p.79.

Please send to us at Our Home, Dansville, New York, one half a dozen of our pictures, both on one card, and one dozen each separate; also two of James, large, and two of mine, the best you can find." - Letter 6, 1865 (To 'Dear Children,' September 22, 1865. Source: "Manuscript Releases" Vol. 5, p. 385)

Which counsel should we take?

Yes Ian, but do you notice from those texts that the gift of prophecy will be wide spread, not limited to one person?  You've just provided the texts to prove standard SDA doctrine in the matter is not biblical and is in error. 

Have you ever bothered to study from scripture what the gift of prophecy is and why it was given?  I've taught it on here often enough that you are without excuse. 

15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”  Deuteronomy 18

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.  Exodus 20

While it is true that the people were not to approach the mountain on pain of death during the three days previous this was the day of Pentecost.  It was not by accident that God and the prophets have called the feast days the appointed times.  This was the appointed time for Israel to enter Pentecost, hear God's voice (his fire) directly and enter into that fire for themselves.  According to what Moses said in verse 20 this is the only way we can be sanctified.  Because the people refused to hear God's voice for themselves, which God then identifies in Deuteronomy 18 as the gift of prophecy, and because they asked for God to speak to them only through intermediaries their continued lack of faith and their continued sin was assured. 

Here at the mountain they rejected Pentecost.  As a result, a year and a half later when they were called to fulfill Tabernacles by entering into Canaan from the south they did not have the faith to enter in.  They had to wait 38 years and enter the land at Passover (the level of faith they had obtained), crossing over from the east, across the Jordan (which is characterized as baptism, but is also a sign that they can only enter the Land through death and resurrection) and the next opportunity for the entire congregation to receive Pentecost was delayed for 1500 years.   All the prophets since that time, beginning with Moses, have been Pentecostal, by definition, because they were able to hear God's voice and repeat to us what they heard.  The first thing Moses heard was the rest of the law which the people would have heard that day had they not rejected the ability to hear God's voice.  Since it was Jesus in his preincarnate form up on that mountain with Moses and dictating to him, this law is the first Testimony of Jesus, something Jesus himself confirmed in John 5:31-47 in which Jesus himself defines the Testimony of Jesus and states in verses 45-47 that everything Moses wrote was about him.

It is on this basis that we can identify true Pentecostals and we are right to reject the false Pentecostalism taught by the majority of those who identify themselves by that word today.  Yet we share in the sin of our ancestors at Sinai when we reject any manifestation of Pentecost as we have throughout the history of this denomination, and if we pray as does Dwight Nelson for a Pentecost II at the Latter Rain we assure that we will be among the foolish virgins who did not have the faith to enter into the wedding feast.  Only those who already possess a Pentecostal anointing at the time of the Latter Rain will receive the fulness of the Holy Spirit and be able to enter into the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles (which Ellen White describes in her early visions, but failing to use that terminology).  If you want to be there you must become Pentecostal now and you must accept the full Testimony of Jesus (which is every word that proceeds from the mouth of God) now.

Ellen White was rather schizophrenic on this subject.  You can find in her writings both statements fully upholding the so-called Law of Moses and dismissing it entirely.  I have never seen a proper and balance teaching from her on this matter, but that does not mean it did not exist. 

The book of Hebrews is clear.  The law and its ceremonies were not done away with, only the sacrifice and its blood and the temple changed.  Instead of the blood of bulls, goats, rams and doves the blood of Jesus is to be ministered.  Instead of the physical temple of the Old Covenant in Jerusalem the spiritual temple of the New Covenant is where this blood must be ministered, and the New Testament is clear that this temple is the Body of Christ, the Church itself and is first fully manifested in the people called the elect, the overcomers or the 144,000 who follow Jesus wherever he goes.  The rest of the believers do not follow him wherever he goes because they reject hearing his voice directly and obeying the entire Testimony of Jesus. 

It is time for you and the rest of this denomination to stop rejecting the definitions given in scripture in favor of your own self-serving definitions that justify your continuing in sin, and it is time for you to stop rejecting the gift of prophecy, which the denomination very openly does while at the same time presenting a false and not at all biblical doctrine that claims a belief in the gift.

As for the fundamental beliefs, although I have seen a post on here that indicates they may have been coined sometime in the 1940's I was not aware of them until I was in college and thought they had been determined only a few years before that sometime in the 1970's.  At that time there were only 13 or 18, I do not recall exactly which.  When I was baptized in November of 1970 the fundamental beliefs were not discussed.  When I went down into the pool I was baptized into the baptism of John, for the repentance of sins and accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as my only means of salvation.  There were no additional tests, and it was not the baptism seen in the book of Acts because SDAs do not actually believe we can be baptized with fire and the spirit today.   We still to this day reject the possibility that one can receive Pentecost now in this Pentecostal age that has been in place since the day of Pentecost in 33 AD.  The fully refuse that it is their own lack of faith and refusal to hear God's voice for themselves that prevents us from being able to receive that anointing before the Latter Rain.  Yet I have seen a few SDAs who have received this anointing (baptizing) not realizing what they have, and not acknowledged by the denomination.

Today there are 28 Fundamental Beliefs, not 27.  I wonder which one Ian is rejecting?  Would I be safe in guessing that it is number 14 which is widely rejected by all too many SDAs who are not bashful and completely unashamed to claim that you are not Christian unless you are SDA and that there is no way you could possibly be saved unless you are SDA?  Ellen White said over and over again that not one in twenty SDAs were saved in her day, and I would venture a guess that statistic is extremely generous today.

PS  Have you ever read the New Covenant?  It is found in Jeremiah 31:31-35 and directly quoted in Hebrews 8:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
1For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

Notice that all who are saved under this covenant will have the gift of prophecy and will know God personally, not through the means of a prophet who teaches us, "know the Lord."

Stop making excuses and start accepting the gift of prophecy wherever it may be found, not just in your one and only approved prophet who herself condemns you for failure to accept the Bible as the standard of faith.  It is well past time for each and every one of us to approach the thick darkness for ourselves, and stop hanging back at a distance claiming this was God's will for us all along.

Don't you quote Sister White. I don't want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now. (Spaulding-Magan Collection, p. 174). 

The testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word.... Let all prove the positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God. (Evangelism, p. 256) 

The Bible is our rule of faith and doctrine. (Gospel Workers, p. 249)

Today there are 28 Fundamental Beliefs, not 27.  I wonder which one Ian is rejecting?  Would I be safe in guessing that it is number 14 which is widely rejected by all too many SDAs who are not bashful and completely unashamed to claim that you are not Christian unless you are SDA and that there is no way you could possibly be saved unless you are SDA?  Ellen White said over and over again that not one in twenty SDAs were saved in her day, and I would venture a guess that statistic is extremely generous today.

Well Myron I wonder why you think I would reject no 14 I have no problem with any of the fundamentals

Have you ever read the New Covenant?  It is found in Jeremiah 31:31-35

This is one of my favorite texts Myron I wonder why you think I would have a problem with this text. 

I wonder why you think I would reject no 14 I have no problem with any of the fundamentals

I should have been more clear, Ian, and I owe you an apology.  I assumed it was simply a typo but took the opportunity to make a general comment about the condition of the denomination.  I've been SDA all my life and have known way too many (not the majority but too big of a minority) who think you cannot be a real Christian unless you are SDA, and the rest of the SDAs never correct them.  I've been guilty of that failure most of my life. 

why you think I would have a problem with this text.

I would think this because the official teaching of the denomination is that there can be no other prophet than Ellen White before the second coming.  There was consideration of making a change in this doctrine back in the late 70's when a young woman in India was very definitely showing the prophetic gift.  However, when Glenn Coon told us of this he also told us the denomination was also leaning toward ruling that she was only a prophet for Indian SDAs and had no relevance to the church in general.  I heard a few more reports of her that year, but never any word of their decision, so I have always assumed they went with the opinion Coon said was their leaning in 78 or 79. 

I've seen nothing in your posts to think you believe any different concerning the gift of prophecy and quite a bit to indicate you join the SDA group-think against scripture on this.  If I have misinterpreted, I apologize, but there is nothing anywhere in scripture to indicate such a limitation on the gift of prophecy and quite a bit to indicate it will be widespread, most especially these "proof texts" the denomination claims supports their position.  If you try to limit the gift to a single person as we do, we have openly rejected the gift of prophecy as taught in scripture.

True Myron a prophet will have resistance in his own church, that episode with the Indian girl was before my time, but I can understand the resistance. To be honest I am not to sure what I would do faced whit it myself.  

How is it an SDA belief  that there will be no more prophets until the second coming?  I've never heard that.

It isn't true.  Otherwise there would be no Later Rain.


It has been SDA teaching since long before I was born and was still widely taught during my high school and college years.  I have not been active in formal education anywhere since 2000 and not in SDA schools for a year or two before that, so I really do not know what they are teaching now. 

That doctrine is false, and the proof texts that are seen in 28 fundamental beliefs clearly prove it, but have long been used as proof of the false doctrine.  As I said on another post in this thread today, the will not to believe is the biggest problem in the church, causing us to twist any text to say exactly what we want it to mean, even when the clear word is sooooooo obvious

And Daniel is right, except that he puts the cart before the horse.  There can be no Latter Rain without the prophets that it will empower.  There will be prophets, many of them, but the Latter Rain empowers them, they do not bring it.

 I have talked to and with many pastors, colporteurs, evangelists, and teachers over the years and not one has said there could/would be no more prophets. Some have said nothing and some have said we do not know. Then there is the question  "on what scale?"  We believe Joel but I am convinced that we will not see another prophet on the scale of the work of EGW. There is not time for that unless  one thinks we are going to hang around over another half century.

I think some Adventists treat Ellen White with MORE reverence than Catholics have for the virgin Mary.

A few years ago when the church board was asking for suggestions for a name for our new church building, I suggested "Shrine of Our Lady of Eternal Responsibility". (meaning St. Ellen, of course.) For some reason they were not particularly impressed.

The Greek writing says "Ellen White", and the Roman numerals say 1844. Wouldn't it make a lovely stained glass window?


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