Adventist Online

In the lesson study for this Quarter, the author posit that that there were two messianic prophecies, and that the first century Jewish Messianic expectation was one-sided. Can this argument be substantiated? Are there two Messianic prophecies? If it is found that there isn't two messianic prophecies and that Jesus had not fulfill any of the prophecies given by God, would you give up the Christian walk, or would you continue to have a relationship with God and look for Jesus to come? How do you reason.

Views: 944

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

James shouted, "THESE EXPLAIN A LOT"

I think this explains where you get your understanding from and why you cannot answer the questions that are being put to you.

The commentary that you have linked to is written by those who, like you, subscribe to Unitarian teachings, don't use capital letters for the Holy Spirit, believe in the Sacred Secrets/Mystery, etc., etc. Basically you are just pointing us to a commentary by people who hold the same beliefs you do and use Bullinger as you do, apparently in the hope that they will provide the answers that you can't.

Yet I wonder whether you have read this commentary? For example, the commentary on Matt.12:40 says, "The “sign” of Jonah to the Ninevites was that a prophet of God came alone and unarmed into an enemy country and boldly proclaimed the truth to them at the possible cost of his life."

Isn't that the same thing that Doug Batchelor alluded to? However, it goes on to say that being in the heart of the earth means the same as being dead with no Biblical basis for that interpretation as opposed being in "an enemy country". So no Biblical basis, just a contradiction based on an assumption.

Whilst the commentary insists that three days and three nights be literal, it doesn't explain away the contradiction of Jesus' statements about rising on the third day. It accepts Sunday resurrection and then counts backwards to arrive at a Wednesday crucifixion on the basis that the time is literal as opposed to idiomatic but doesn't explain why it takes that position.

It claims that the 14th Nisan is Wednesday but does not address why the Feast of Firstfruits (16th Nisan) is not fulfilled by Christ resurrecting on that day. The same as I pointed out in previous posts:


Day of Week



14th Nisan


Feast of Passover 


15th Nisan


Feast of Unleavened Bread / sabbath

Christ rested in tomb

16th Nisan


Feast of Firstfruits


17th Nisan



None / Resurrection?

18th Nisan


1st day of week

None / Resurrection?

Even if we were to agree that Christ rose at the end of the Sabbath (I have adjusted my chart above to reflect this) there is still no fulfilment of the Feast of Firstfruits. You complain about Lev. 23 not being fulfilled but it is your version that does not fulfil it whereas the traditional account fits in with the sacred chronology of Lev. 23.


Day of Week



14th Nisan


Feast of Passover


15th Nisan


Feast of Unleavened Bread / sabbath

Christ rested in tomb

16th Nisan


Feast of Firstfruits

Resurrection of Christ

Is this the explanation as to why you don't address the Biblical points we are raising?

So... this is now the fifth time of asking you:

Eight "red letter" statements from Jesus wherein He states that He will rise within or on three days. Did Jesus lie?

Paul said not just that Jesus rose on the third day but that it was according to the scriptures, "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1Cor 15:4)

Did Paul lie?

I keep asking you not to ignore these quotes and give Bible-based reasons for your response but you keep ignoring them. Why?

In the Hebrew culture, it was believed that the soul of the departed dead person would "hang around" trying to enter the body again. (this is their belief, not biblically true) and after the third day (three days and three nights) they believed that no soul could enter a person again (can't be resurrected). Jesus waited until the 4th day with Lazarus, so it defied their beliefs by the power of God so that they would believe him.

Jesus said no sign would be given to an evil generation except the sign of Jonas, as the Jonah was in the belly of the fish (or whale) three days and three nights so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth. You can't get plainer than that. Did Jesus lie? I don't think so.

In the Jewish culture, a person was not declared dead until the person was dead three full days (72 hours). That is another reason Jesus fulfilled the law. A person was also buried the same day they died in that culture.

You are far from the level of knowledge of Biblical Research, including translating scriptures as well as walking by the spirit and operating the spirit of God as John Schoenheit is concerned. He has spent what, 14 or 15 years working on the REV and is still working on it, including the commentaries.

His ministry, although you down it by saying it is Unitarian as I am, yet I don't see anything hardly of the spirit of God in manifestation as far as the nine manifestations of holy spirit in the SDA churches generally, with very few exceptions indeed. Maybe a little revelation as I have seen on very rare occasions by one or two individuals.

The manifestations and signs, miracles and wonders are supposed to follow believers who walk by the spirit. You are taught not to believe and desire the manifestations of holy spirit, instead of desiring (coveting spiritual matters and things). You always jump to the counterfeit, which does exist but is God completely out of business as far as the nine manifestations are concerned?NO! You give too much glory to Lucifer while quenching the spirit. Anyone that manifests anything of the spirit of God is ostracized in the SDA. If anyone got up and prophesied, he or she would be immediately escorted out of the church, and if someone attempted to speak in tongues and interpret in your church, a message from God to the body of Christ, that person would be harassed and escorted and probably banned from attending the church.

You would throw out the Apostle Paul if he came to your church, hypothetically as I know he is dead.

I have seen great things and so have others. You will never see them if you don't believe God and walk by the spirit. All you can do is criticise. Yet there is NO PROPHESY, NO TONGUES WITH INTERPRETATION, NO FAITH, GIFTS OF HEALING OR WORKING OF MIRACLES IN THE GENERAL CHRISTIANITY INCLUDING THE SDA, CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE.



The unbelief in Christianity generally is really sad, and it is a disgrace.

You could attend a million Sabbaths, but God would prefer if you walked by the spirit and did what he wants as in the Book of Acts. They had far less Word of God than we have, as they didn't have a Book with Old and New Testaments they could carry around, as they were rare and extremely expensive. They memorized some scriptures, but they walked by the spirit and did amazing miracles and the Word turned the world upside-down. They had the spirit of God and listened and obeyed the spirit of God and walked in power and love. They had their testimonies also of both Jesus and also their own testimonies. People are dying, suffering, not saved, oppressed by the Devil, sick and there is no one to help them with the power of God. It is a disgrace. Religion makes God sick, and it makes me sick also. 

Why has the Book of Acts not been replicated for the most part, though I and others have been privileged to see glimpses of Acts type move of God via the spirit of God. That includes John Schoenheit who operates all nine manifestations of holy spirit. You JohnB do not hold a candle to him spiritually. 

You are in kindergarten while he has received his Ph.D. figuratively speaking from God and continues to help others around the world through his ministry. What the hell have you done other than criticizing others and debate? Have you ministered healing to one person in your life and they were healed? Have you ministered to the brokenhearted and have you spoken prophesy by the spirit of God. Somehow I don't think so?

Tell us of your great ministry, please? Otherwise go back to square one and believe God and His scriptures.

James the question was not how superior you are compared to others, in reality, you are satans spawn and not a Christian at all. Most Christians I know do not compare themselves to others, what they do is compare themselves to Christ and know how a poor specimen they are compared to Him.   

Good evening John, and other fellow respondents,

While one waits for Mr. French responds, permit me to add my piece to this discourse by saying that although Matthew 12:40 can speak to the length of time Jesus would be in Jerusalem spitting out words of repentance, that segment actually speak to where Jesus said he would be heading when he dead  and for how long. According to Jesus he went to hell or somewhere in the spiritual realm and turn up Satan and His army place and take possession of the keys of hell and the grave. Tme Period for that mission: 3 nights & 3 days. Whether His Father send some back up, it is possible, but at the end of the third day, His Father, the Almighty Yahweh have to take Him up again. 


"Spitting out words of repentance"? Do you not consider that to be offensive?

In regard to Jesus going "to hell or somewhere in the spiritual realm and turn up Satan and His army place and take possession of the keys of hell and the grave". Please provide Bible references.

Hi Garth,

I mentioned earlier that I believe Jesus was referring to hell with the 3 days & nights reference.  

FYI - Hell is also known as the english word for Hades/Sheol.  It's unfortunate that it became a cartoonish caricature of what Sheol meant during Jesus time on earth. I  believe that is why a lot of people shy away from using it.  Which to me just makes things even harder to explain in the long run as they try to put a sunny twist on it.

This is where his soul would have went once he died, not when his shell(body) was placed in a conenient tomb/grave.  Our soul is the essential part of us compared to our shell/body which eventually turns to dust.

ACTS 2:30-31

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (She'ol), neither his flesh did see corruption.

Ecclesiastes 9:2-3

All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead (She'ol).

To restate what I said before -

Our soul is the essence of who we are not our shell(body).  To me it literally makes no sense to think the time frame God was referring to began only when he shell(body) was placed in a tomb.

If you research the Hebrew description of She'ol it's not some inferno where demons are sticking pitch forks into people bodies.  It's a place for souls. Prior to Jesus death it was widely believed souls would remain there forever.  However, Jesus' resurrection and ascension into heaven paved the way for salvation to all that choose to follow his message / God's will on the day of judgement.

According to the belief at the time of the "In the Heart of the Earth" phrase, everyone's soul was believed to go to some part of She'ol when they die. Not everyone had the luxury of having their shell(body) placed in a tomb/grave.

To me "Heart of the Hearth" = She'ol/Hell//Hades just makes more sense rather than Tomb/Grave. 

Rabbit what church do you belong to?

"Rabbit what church do you belong to."

To keep it simple Jason.  I only belong to God.  As such he will be the final judge of me and my thoughts.  Not church.

Rabbittroup,  the soul does not "go" anywhere. Death is spoken of as akin to sleep in the Bible. Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping when he was dead, when David died he was referred to as sleeping, etc. 

When a person dies their body returns to the earth, dust, the spirit returns to God and the soul ceases to exist until resurrection. 

JohnB.  Hell is a point of reference in the bible.  It exist in scripture.  Perhaps you should research She'ol rather than letting the concept of how you think of Hell affect your response.

I never said our spirits don't belong to God. However at the time Jesus spoke his 3 days / nights Heart of the earth reference it was common Hebrew belief the spirits of the dead went to She'ol and remained there unconsciously forever. Both the righteous and unrighteous, I already posted scripture referencing it "Ecclesiastes 9:2-3"

I also posted scripture that specifically referenced the resurrection of Christ that his soul was not left in Hell. "ACTS 2:30-31"

You're free to believe as you want.  But I already stated based on the concept of salvation it makes no sense for Jesus to have referred to his shell(body) being moved to a tomb as the starting point for his heart of the earth timer. Especially since everyone doesn't get to be placed in a tomb; 

If you take a moment to think and research; You'll probably see what you said describe's She'ol and matches what I described.  Some just need to unwrap their thoughts around the "traditional" meaning of hell which completely undermines how it is used in the bible.  Much like some who say Joseph of Arimathea's tomb used for Jesus' shell/body as the start of the Heart of the Earth timer causes confusion.


Site Sponsors


Adventist Single?
Meet other Single
Adventists here:
Join Free

USA members:

Support AO by
using this link:


© 2019   Created by Clark P.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service