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Good day brothers and sisters, do have a wonderful Sabbath experience.

Today my question to you comes from my study of the underpinning principles that guide Muslims. The question is do you think that Muslims who serve God would live with Him eternally? If Yes or No, why?

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Garth again you are confusing Bible verses and have a problem understanding context.

Do you know what a theocracy is? Was Mohammed religion a theocracy? Was Moses religion a theocracy? See the difference? God didn't tell Mohammed anything. .


As for the Bible verses in question they don't say what you thing they say. Please read
1 Corinthians 5:9

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.

Garth said: " Moreover, Jesus says He didn't come to bring peace but a sword, and we are to do as Jesus does and start bringing war against the wicked, against the unbelievers. "

Brother Garth are you serious? I mean like really...smh

Clearly, Garth, you should be a politician. Here you are painting Islam as a peace-loving religion who newer harms a fly. and Christianity as murderers and blasphemers. Those texts you are alluding to are from the old testament. When Jesus did take up his ministry He overturned those old teachings. 

Garth said:  Thus, my brother, for all those who have killed in the name of God and are still doing so, and are under the umbrella of Christian or consider/call themselves Christian of any particular faith are going to live with God. For they have fulfilled the word of God as prescribed by the Bible, and they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Please, Gart show me one text where Jesus said that we shall murder unbelievers or treat them worse than animals?  

Some here has pointed out texts that say how the Quran tells the Muslims that they must kill Cristian dogs. This is not a thing you can sweep under the carpet. Christ never said anything like that.  

What you need to understand this is not a site to convert Christians to Islam. This site is for SDA made by an SDA. I am sure you will not gain one convert here to Islam. There is a big difference between Christianity and Islam. I admit the Catholic church did kill people who did not conform to the faith of Catholics similar to Islam, but then again the Bible points out that the Catholic church is the spawn of the devil as is Islam. And as I said before the Catholic church worships on a Sunday and of cause the Islam on a Friday. Both those days are kept as spurious sabbaths, moving up as close as they possibly can to the true Sabbath. Both are false religions that do not have any regards to the God of Abraham who did keep the Sabbath.    

If you did not know Islam has Ishmael as the boy on the altar that Abraham erected at Mount Moriah, not Isaac as the Bible points out, who do you think is correct? This is of cause more falsehood as they are striving to legitimise their religion. And here you are trying to convince us that Islam is a true religion ordained by God, give me a break! 

More taqqiyah, Garth. No recognition that there is no command from Jesus that says anything of the sort. Jesus is the one who said, “love your enemies.” Jesus said to follow Him. Christians do not believe that the Old Testament commands that applied to that time and that place are commands for today. We are followers of Jesus.

I now see you reveal yourself. “We have every right to force our religion on all we perceive as evildoers”, “we have all rights to kill them or condemn them to hell”.

These statements, Garth, show us all who you come from. And it isn’t our Lord. Someplace south of that.

My brother, we have every right to force our religion on all we perceive as evil doers those that are hungry mouth, destitute, working white and black magic, and all else, and even unbelievers - people of other religions. We have to convert them and bring them in line to what we believe. We have all rights to kill them or condemn to hell because the Bible say that we would judge the world; and, for anyone who was part of our religious group and decide to leave we must disown. 

NO!  I don't know if you're being sarcastic but we should not pervert the message of Jesus and the will of God with such a selfish and wicked view of attaining "peace" on earth. People that believe as you stated do so at their own peril, not because it is the will of God which Jesus taught..

If your statement was serious you are seriously confused about faith Garth. Faith means nothing when forced on people. Just because someone says they are doing something for God that does not make it so.  Would you say a parrot is a dog if it mimics a barking sound?  Does "know them by their works" mean anything to you? 

Garth, you risk being easily deceived during the time of Anti-Christ if you think those methods are appropriate and in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ son of the one true God.

This is possibly the most off the mark thing I've ever seen posted here. How can you even consider yourself a christian and believe that?  

I believe Garth is a Muslim. I believe JohnB knows something of his religion...

A few quotes from Quran The Book of "Peace"

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Notwithstanding the 72 Virgins

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward "

This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. The targets of violence are "those who disbelieve" - further defined in the next verse (13) as "defy and disobey Allah." Nothing is said about self-defense. In fact, the verses in sura 8 were narrated shortly after a battle provoked by Muhammad, who had been trying to attack a lightly-armed caravan to steal goods belonging to other people.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

As Ibn Kathir puts it in his tafsir on this passage, "Allah commands Muslims to prepare for war against disbelievers, as much as possible, according to affordability and availability."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "heals" the hearts of Muslims.

This is only a few there is much more like this Look here.

Can you believe it and Garth says they are "Bound for Heaven"

Good day Brethren

I write to thank you for your responses, and permit me to state that I do not subscribe to the rationalizations, beliefs of Christian terrorists, and some religious faiths to date. Moreover, I do not advocate that you should be converted to Islam,or you should even like the religion. I am a servant of God and a student of the Book/Bible, and it is an application from which you can gain important lessons to help one in his or her spiritual growth or journey.

However, what I want to underscore is the importance of context, and the hypocrisy of certain Christian adherents and Christian groups. First, your responses are classic. Immediately, each of you go straight into defense - "Garth again you are confusing Bible verses and understand context..."; "Garth here you are painting a picture that Islam is peace - loving religion that would never hurt a fly and Christianity as murders and blasphemers...";"...there is no command from Jesus that says anything of the sort..."; "If your statement was serious you are seriously confused about faith Garth. Faith means nothing when forced on people. Just because someone says they are doing something for God that does not make it so...". Just taking snippets of your argument. This defense brethren speaks to the hypocrisy of some Christians; they are quick to condemn and vitiate another's religion as wicked and baseless, but not not their own; or they know that their own is not far different, but pretend that it never has committed any atrocities. But as one proverb said, when your neighbour house on fire wet yours. 

On another front, Jason, you see what you said about how context is important, and which is a point everyone is conveying as well, that is also a serious one. If you, and you I mean, people in general, as an individual have not sat down and fully assess for yourself, not leaning on any man's interpretations, it is not profitable to pull a segment out of some one's holy book and distort and present it to your liking.

Also, and equally so, the adherent of whatever particular religious group(s) should never work with piecemeal segments of his or her holy book. They must sit down and read the material in its entirety, assess the historical settings, and so on to gain an appreciation for the material presented before him or her. And if they are so incline they can share it to help someone grow closer to God, or if it is not doing so, keep it to themselves. One must also give room to snippets of hope expressed by God there in. It helps relieve the burden felt in this life. 

So brethren, do not think I do not know the historical content and what God is attempting to convey in the Bible; By God's Spirit, I have the opportunity to understand the Bible; and He continues to teach me and help me understand convoluting topics and passages.

On the other hand, what I can encourage you to do is to look at your own selves and where do you stand with God. Are you Heaven ready? Are you and God real 'tight'?

My Second point is that not everyone who says that he or she is a Muslim or Christian would have the experience to live with God. Their deeds would find them out, and some who are unrepentant though wherein the garb or name Muslim or Christian would sure have their reward. 

So have a great week brethren

Garth our resident Muslim still defending Islam as God's only true religion. You say you have studied the Bible and think it is a poorer book than the Quran, really bro give us a break! And for your information, this site is not for Moslems to defend the Islamic faith. It is for SDA discussing SDA issues. 

 

Garth,

It is not judgementalism that makes it easy to read the Qu'ran and come to the conclusion that it is "wicked and baseless".  Any theology that mandates violence toward nonbelievers or apostates can be discarded out of hand.  Hypocrisy would be if Christianity today mandated violence, and you cannot show in any place that the teachings of Jesus mandate violence toward anyone.  Your charge of "hypocrisy" thus falls down as untrue. 

You again hold with the deed-driven view of salvation, and fail to recognize that it is all of grace and none of deeds.  When deeds that are from God are performed, it is BECAUSE of the salvation of Jesus Christ, not in order to achieve that salvation.  It is a result, not a cause.  There is no righteousness apart from Jesus.  Not in Islam, not in Buddhism, not in Zen or Hinduism or Zoroastrianism.  If you believe that this statement can only come from a judgemental and illegitimate source, it can only be because you do not understand Who Jesus Christ was and is.  I hope that someday, you do.

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